18 replies to this topic

[mvahora]

So just want to make sure I've done this properly, 

 

Removed the hub. Removed old top and bottom ball joints. followed a few videos on youtube. setvesons motor co and d3shooter.

 

New top ball joint in. Shimming by feel. Took a while. Eventually got it to a point where it moves all round with some resistance. Feels a tad tight and can be moved about with a medium push of my thumb and index finger. 

 

Bottom ball joint I removed the spring and shimmed it. Got it similar to above. Reopened,  moly greased, spring back in. The spring back in made it a tad tighter and it requires a little bit more to move it than the top joint but it does move around if I grab it with curled 3 fingers + index finger. 

 

Is this how tight it should be? I know its a bit hard because its all to feel. 

Edited by mvahora, 13 April 2025 - 11:13 AM.

[Spider]

The factory manual states " No nip to 0.003" end float ".

No nip means there's no free play and it's not nipped or tight at all.

 

In my view (and experience), you've set them ever so slightly on the tight side.

 

Is it a big deal ? Again, experience has shown me yes, it is. They are best set with free play, but within the range the factory states, this will allow the grease to get where it needs to and not be wiped off. Setting them with any nip causes the grease to be wiped clean, then they will wear in their common movement range while tightening outside of that and in fairly short time.

 

 

[nicklouse]

Yes adding the spring makes it tighter as it should do.

and as above. A tad tight.

[bpirie1000]

Also some have used lapping paste to make sure smooth nut and ball surfaces..

I have never done this but something to consider if you have issues..

Sure it will be fine.. check it in a 500-1000 miles...

Have confidence...

[mvahora]

The factory manual states " No nip to 0.003" end float ".

No nip means there's no free play and it's not nipped or tight at all.

 

In my view (and experience), you've set them ever so slightly on the tight side.

 

Is it a big deal ? Again, experience has shown me yes, it is. They are best set with free play, but within the range the factory states, this will allow the grease to get where it needs to and not be wiped off. Setting them with any nip causes the grease to be wiped clean, then they will wear in their common movement range while tightening outside of that and in fairly short time.

 

 

 

did you mean that no nip means there is free play? would that mean no resistance at all?

 

what does  "0.003" end float " mean?

 

I did the measure method first using a feeler gauge but it didn't really work. was just way to tight after subtracting for the locktab and adding the additional shim. hence why I ended up doing it by feel. 

 

not too sure if I should go back and try get it a bit looser. I was having issues with it being either way to loose or way to tight. so when I did manage to hit this sweet spot bit reluctant to go back and do it again. I could possibly reduce the torque. I've got it at 75 ft lbs at the moment. 

 

 

just came across these videos, id say mine move similar to this 

 

 

 

https://www.youtube....rts/au6QUx2tdtQ

Edited by mvahora, 13 April 2025 - 12:14 PM.

[nicklouse]

Don’t reduce the torque.

[mbolt998]

Maybe just drive on them for a couple of 100 miles and then put some more grease in via the nipples? This is the lazy solution :) In general a bit too loose is better than too tight but MOT testers don't always understand this (components on newer cars are higher precision so you don't have to choose). So if you're taking it for an MOT now is probably a good time! Don't reduce the torque. They're meant to be properly tight and the shims are what achieve any required adjustment.

Edited by mbolt998, 13 April 2025 - 04:31 PM.

[Spider]

did you mean that no nip means there is free play? would that mean no resistance at all?

 

what does  "0.003" end float " mean?

 

I did the measure method first using a feeler gauge but it didn't really work. was just way to tight after subtracting for the locktab and adding the additional shim. hence why I ended up doing it by feel. 

 

not too sure if I should go back and try get it a bit looser. I was having issues with it being either way to loose or way to tight. so when I did manage to hit this sweet spot bit reluctant to go back and do it again. I could possibly reduce the torque. I've got it at 75 ft lbs at the moment. 

 

just came across these videos, id say mine move similar to this 

 

https://www.youtube....rts/au6QUx2tdtQ

 

 

" No Nip " means that sweet spot where the pin is free and there's no perceivable free play, though in reality, there would be some free play, but beyond what can be felt or measured with standard workshop test gear. Without grease, if the hub is held such that the Pin is sideways, the Pin will easily fall under it's own weight.

 

" 0.003" End Float " is just that. You could sent up a dial gauge, end on to the pin and measure the free play 3 thousands of an inch is the upper limit of what's allowable. It's just a wee bit more than what you are likely able to feel when moving the Pin with your fingers up and down.

 

While there is that method of determining the shims in the workshop manual, like you, I find it faster to do them by trial and error. Nothing in the world wrong with that. The lower joint is first worked out what shims are needed without the spring fitted. I them mark the Cup relative to the Grease Nipple and remove it to fit the Spring and then tighten to align my mark again, and I know they are right.

 

The Torque range on the Cup is 70 to 80 lb / in. They offer this 10 lb / ft range in there so they can be finely set.

 

I did brave that youtube clip and they are WAY too tight !

[mvahora]

 

did you mean that no nip means there is free play? would that mean no resistance at all?

 

what does  "0.003" end float " mean?

 

I did the measure method first using a feeler gauge but it didn't really work. was just way to tight after subtracting for the locktab and adding the additional shim. hence why I ended up doing it by feel. 

 

not too sure if I should go back and try get it a bit looser. I was having issues with it being either way to loose or way to tight. so when I did manage to hit this sweet spot bit reluctant to go back and do it again. I could possibly reduce the torque. I've got it at 75 ft lbs at the moment. 

 

just came across these videos, id say mine move similar to this 

 

https://www.youtube....rts/au6QUx2tdtQ

 

 

" No Nip " means that sweet spot where the pin is free and there's no perceivable free play, though in reality, there would be some free play, but beyond what can be felt or measured with standard workshop test gear. Without grease, if the hub is held such that the Pin is sideways, the Pin will easily fall under it's own weight.

 

" 0.003" End Float " is just that. You could sent up a dial gauge, end on to the pin and measure the free play 3 thousands of an inch is the upper limit of what's allowable. It's just a wee bit more than what you are likely able to feel when moving the Pin with your fingers up and down.

 

While there is that method of determining the shims in the workshop manual, like you, I find it faster to do them by trial and error. Nothing in the world wrong with that. The lower joint is first worked out what shims are needed without the spring fitted. I them mark the Cup relative to the Grease Nipple and remove it to fit the Spring and then tighten to align my mark again, and I know they are right.

 

The Torque range on the Cup is 70 to 80 lb / in. They offer this 10 lb / ft range in there so they can be finely set.

 

I did brave that youtube clip and they are WAY too tight !

 

 

okay so being the real picky guy that I am I looked at it again today -  yeah the bottom one was wayyy to tight. So I left the top joint the same and added an additional thinnest shim to the bottom joint. 

 

seemed loose with the additional shim and spring removed torqued to 75 ft lbs. when I put the spring in and retorqued to 75ftlbs it got bit tighter.

 

can you guys look at the videos I've uploaded on the attached link - first vid shows top joint as it is and then shows the bottom joint with additional shim added but spring removed (seems quite loose). second video shows bottom joint with additional shim added and spring added (tighter). 

 

do these seem good now? top one slightly tighter than bottom now.

 

https://drive.google...Dyk?usp=sharing

[Spider]

I looked at your clip " bottom no spring "

The top one is tight and needs additional shimming.

The lower one looks right.

I suspect a lot of people might get confused with Mini Ball Joints if they are used to working on other cars.
'Normal' cars that have non-servicable Ball Joints have a Pin that's similar to the Minis, however the cup and seats are often made from an engineering plastic and spring loaded (the springs used are way heavier than those in the lower Mini type). The Plastic Seats has a lot of give and so can be loaded up. They are 'self lubrucating' though the balls in the pins still do wear, but with the heavy spring and the give in the plastics, it's not until they get very worn that they can be picked as such on the usual '12 and 6 grab the wheel' checks. The thing is, even when worn, these types of joints feel very tight to move.

Mini Ball Joints - like everything else ! - are quite different. They are all hardened parts - precision hardened parts - rubbing on each other, so lubrication is critical. There is no 'give' in them and so if set tight, even a small bit, they wear like crazy.

[mvahora]

I looked at your clip " bottom no spring "

The top one is tight and needs additional shimming.

The lower one looks right.

I suspect a lot of people might get confused with Mini Ball Joints if they are used to working on other cars.
'Normal' cars that have non-servicable Ball Joints have a Pin that's similar to the Minis, however the cup and seats are often made from an engineering plastic and spring loaded (the springs used are way heavier than those in the lower Mini type). The Plastic Seats has a lot of give and so can be loaded up. They are 'self lubrucating' though the balls in the pins still do wear, but with the heavy spring and the give in the plastics, it's not until they get very worn that they can be picked as such on the usual '12 and 6 grab the wheel' checks. The thing is, even when worn, these types of joints feel very tight to move.

Mini Ball Joints - like everything else ! - are quite different. They are all hardened parts - precision hardened parts - rubbing on each other, so lubrication is critical. There is no 'give' in them and so if set tight, even a small bit, they wear like crazy.

 

yep so I think im getting the feel for it. without the spring when held such that the Pin is sideways, as you mentioned the Pin will easily fall under it's own weight. then when the spring is put back in it'll stiffen up a bit but will still be quite smooth to move around. like it doesn't take strength or pressure to move it around. the spring back tightens it so that the pin wont fall under its own weight. is that ok? did you see the second vid once the spring was put back in?

 

yep ill go back and shim the top one some more and hopefully get it similar to the bottom one. 

 

its surprising you mention people being confused, I was confused myself because a lot of the "mini" videos I've watched online have mentioned keeping them a heck of a lot stiffer.  

Edited by mvahora, 14 April 2025 - 12:11 PM.

[Spider]

yep so I think im getting the feel for it. without the spring when held such that the Pin is sideways, as you mentioned the Pin will easily fall under it's own weight. then when the spring is put back in it'll stiffen up a bit but will still be quite smooth to move around. like it doesn't take strength or pressure to move it around. the spring back tightens it so that the pin wont fall under its own weight. is that ok? did you see the second vid once the spring was put back in?

 

yep ill go back and shim the top one some more and hopefully get it similar to the bottom one. 

 

its surprising you mention people being confused, I was confused myself because a lot of the "mini" videos I've watched online have mentioned keeping them a heck of a lot stiffer.  

 

 

The Spring in the lower joint will make it feel stiffer, but there's still space there for grease.

 

Yes, I've been reading and seeing for many years about how many others set them and that's why I gave that explanation of other car's ball joints - it's my best guess as to why they set them that way, or it maybe out of laziness / in a rush to actually set them right.
 

[Rubbershorts]

The video you've been watching is the one I used. That is Ross from Thomas Modern and Classic. Aren't they quite respected in the UK for their Mini restoration work?

[Cooperman]

I do always lap in the new ball joints before assembly, then set them 'by feel' so that they move easily with just finger pressure and torque then to 'FT'.

[petey81]

The best thing I ever did was buy the sealed ball joints 👍