9 replies to this topic

[mab01uk]

A detailed assessment from an actual pilot who knows his stuff.

 

Edited by mab01uk, 29 December 2024 - 11:15 PM.

[floormanager]

Wow, very interesting.  Thank you for posting.

[sledgehammer]

R I P

[DeadSquare]

My two-penny-worth.

 

As a former Sail-plane (Glider) pilot, we invariably land in "Ground effect", and accept that for those seconds, we know that if something unforeseen should occur, we really have no control of the plane.

 

It must have been just too awful to have been used to the drag of the undercarriage but finding the aircraft well down the runway, floating in ground effect, not slowing, and maybe unable to spool up the engines to go round.

[sonikk4]

To me this smacks of a systemic crew failure, possibly lack of experience but if you have a least one engine delivering power or the electric pumps running then you will have hydraulics to lower flaps, extend slats and spoilers.

The fact no gear doors were down at all says they did not try a gravity gear drop something I have seen on several occasions and not that long ago with other hydraulic issues not related to a engine failure.

Did the crew panic, was there some form of incapacitation due to ingestion of fumes from the bird strike remains to be seen, however all flight crew are trained in the event of adverse smells to don their oxygen masks immediately as part of their reaction checklist.

The fact they carried on after the initial surge showed they have sufficient thrust to enable this to happen so performing a go around. By then they should have been going through the quick reaction checklist setting the aircraft up for a possible single engine approach even with out Hyds.

It does sound like a human factors related accident but until like he said a full investigation has been carried out, a detailed examination of the CVR and black box will they then be able to draw a defined conclusion.

Horrendous when it looks like it could have been entirely avoidable. My thoughts go out to all the families.

[sledgehammer]

Wonder if their eyesight could have been affected by smoke ?

Would there have been a audio gear up warning ?

What ever happened , it seems a bit mad to put a heavy concrete barrier , where a run-off was possible

We can't help the dead , but hopefully something can be learned from this .

Again R I P .

Edited by sledgehammer, 31 December 2024 - 07:04 PM.

[sonikk4]

Wonder if their eyesight could have been affected by smoke ?

Would there have been a audio gear up warning ?

What ever happened , it seems a bit mad to put a heavy concrete barrier , where a run-off was possible

We can't help the dead , but hopefully something can be learned from this .

Again R I P .

IF they were using oxygen then the masks do invariably come like a full face mask, however that does vary.

Gear up warning, looking at the configuration of the aircraft, so flying controls fully faired etc I would say the thing they would be hearing is “ Terrain Terrain pull up” as the Radar Altimeter should be doing it’s thing. It’s surprising how slow a airliner can go without stalling and setting off all kinds of alerts, HOWEVER it’s really does depend on the config of the Aircraft at that point in time.

As for the concrete at the end there where the ILS was mounted, not all runways have sufficient room for any form of Run Off. Was it a poor design, I would say Yes without a doubt but how long had it been like that??

[68+86auto]

Without a full investigation it's very confusing as to how it could happen.

[mab01uk]

"The two black boxes on the Boeing jet involved in the worst aviation disaster on South Korean soil stopped recording about four minutes before the accident, officials have said.

After analysing the devices, the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) concluded that both the flight data and cockpit voice recorders stopped working about four minutes before the crash, the South Korean Transportation Ministry said. Investigators previously said the flight data and cockpit voice recorders were key to finding out the cause of last month's crash that killed all but two of the 181 people on board."

https://www.bbc.co.u...es/cjr8dwd1rdno

 

 

[sonikk4]

 

"The two black boxes on the Boeing jet involved in the worst aviation disaster on South Korean soil stopped recording about four minutes before the accident, officials have said.

After analysing the devices, the US National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) concluded that both the flight data and cockpit voice recorders stopped working about four minutes before the crash, the South Korean Transportation Ministry said. Investigators previously said the flight data and cockpit voice recorders were key to finding out the cause of last month's crash that killed all but two of the 181 people on board."

https://www.bbc.co.u...es/cjr8dwd1rdno

 

 

Now this i find very hard to believe, this items are designed that when an aircraft is flying, engines running they will record aircraft parameters (Black Box)  voices (CVR)

 

Now this is a snippet of how these items actually initiate. 

Cockpit Voice Recorders (CVRs) are activated in a few different ways:

• Automatically

  CVRs are automatically energized when the plane is on the ground and has been powered for at least five minutes. They are also automatically energized when the plane is on the ground and at least one engine is running. Once the plane is in flight, the CVR is automatically energized regardless of whether the engines are running. The CVR automatically stops recording five minutes after the last engine is shut down. 
• Manually

  On the ground, the crew can manually energize the CVR by pressing the GND CTL

https://science.hows...n/black-box.htm

 

A total loss of all power including the 28VDC power supply IE the Aircraft Battery / Batteries would have to happen for the FDR (Flight Data Recorder aka Black Box which is not actually Black but Orange) to stop operating.

 

I will have to consult with my Avionic Bretherns to see if this is physically possible to loose everything in flight when there is actual power available. Something very fishy going on here.