23 replies to this topic

[mab01uk]

 

 

There doesn't appear to be a pump in that additional filter's circuit, how does the oil go through it or is there an electric pump out of view ?

In the 80's I needed space in the front of the engine for a winch. The Oil Filter was in the way, so I made a remote fitting Oil Filter set up in that.

 

 

If I had gone to all that effort, I would have made it part of a dry-sump system.

 

 

That makes more sense.

 

 

I remember some of the 1970's special saloon race Minis with Gordon Allen Cosworth BDH/1300 BDA engines ran 'semi' dry sump systems where they used an external oil tank (usually in the boot) in conjunction with extra filters.
With modern better quality oils, etc it became more common to just run a second remote oil filter to filter the oil both sides of the pump.

 

However if the engine/gearbox is for a Mini 7 race car where the rules were originally designed as a budget formula to keep costs down, I'm not sure a dry sump system would conform to or be in the spirit of the rules...

Edited by mab01uk, 19 November 2024 - 08:01 PM.

[PoolGuy]

However if the engine/gearbox is for a Mini 7 race car where the rules were originally designed as a budget formula to keep costs down, I'm not sure a dry sump system would conform to or be in the spirit of the rules...

 

Specifically banned in Se7en, S-Class & Miglia.

[DeadSquare]

Going back, well over 50 years, I heard a 'post race' Hill-climber state in the Pub, that it was impossible to dry-sump a Mini ..... So, after a bit of sorting around to find a 12 volt bilge pump, I sucked the oil out my 850 Mini Van, through the drain plug and fed it back in through the plate on the back of the gearbox.

 

I would like to tell you, that without the gears churning the oil, the performance was transformed, but all I really noticed was the pungent smell of hot oil.

 

It was an interesting talking point at the next Motor Club meeting, and somehow a Polariod got back to the aforementioned Hill-climber, who decided that it was a "Must-Have".

 

The most difficult thing about transferring it to his car was getting the oil tank and the servo to fit to the inner wing, but we managed to squeeze it all in. 

 

All went well until one Sunday at Maesteg, in South Wales, when a scrutineer decided to look in the tank.  Unaware the he had found it awkward to replace the cap, and left it off, ....  on his first practice run, the aforementioned Hill-climber was not popular when he sprayed the track from  bottom to top with Duckhams.

[Gaz66]

I wonder if the SC whine is more intense when it's dry dumped. 🤔
And is it just a case of pumping the oil to the tank then the engine oil pump sucks it from the tank and through the engine and then it falls over the gears thus lubricating those?

[PoolGuy]

I wonder how the syncro would be affected? Dry clutch, dry sump are obviously a thing, but dry gearbox?

[mab01uk]

Interesting quotes below about dry sumping Mini or Metro A-Series engine/gearboxes.

 

Quote (Pistonheads)

"We dry sumped the A-series in the 70's to stop oil surge when using a 16 valve head. Oil stayed in the head at high revs so the level in the sump was not high enough to allow pickup through the corners.( BL Metro 2wd Rallycross car). The std pump was used as the scavenge pump and the pressure pump was driven off the helix gear on the camshaft where the mech fuel pump was. As we used a 16 valve head the cam only had to drive the oil pump so the profile didn't matter. The oil tank was in the back to help weight distribution (not good for traction though). We had to use large bore hose or the pump would cavitate when the oil was cold. Never had a gearbox or diff problem. Thats all I can remember!!"

https://www.pistonhe...0&f=90&t=668193

 

Quote (Mk1 Forum)

"A guy in Harrogate used to have a dry sumped 'big' Arden race car, I think the dry sumping helped mainly to control the oil temperature and the foaming as there was so much more oil in circulation and so little actually in the gearbox. He certainly had the results and the performance to back the value of the system up, but I suspect modern oils are probably the better option now."

https://mk1-forum.ne...opic.php?t=8713

 

Note: The extra gear on the camshaft below drives an oil pump (where the fuel pump was) for the dry sump system used in the Formula Junior (A-Series) race cars.

I believe the second drive on some cams was also used for the later Lucas Mechanical Fuel Injection system.

 

 

 

Apparently the Group A MG Metro touring cars also ran a dry sump system (see photo below) and Cooper (Downton) tried dry sumping for a time on Gordon Spice's Britax Mini racer in 1969 with little improvement reported by the driver.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gaz66]

I wonder how the syncro would be affected? Dry clutch, dry sump are obviously a thing, but dry gearbox?

The dry sumping was more than likely used with dog gear sets.

[DeadSquare]

Interesting quotes below about dry sumping Mini or Metro A-Series engine/gearboxes.

 

Quote (Pistonheads)

"We dry sumped the A-series in the 70's to stop oil surge when using a 16 valve head. Oil stayed in the head at high revs so the level in the sump was not high enough to allow pickup through the corners.( BL Metro 2wd Rallycross car). The std pump was used as the scavenge pump and the pressure pump was driven off the helix gear on the camshaft where the mech fuel pump was. As we used a 16 valve head the cam only had to drive the oil pump so the profile didn't matter. The oil tank was in the back to help weight distribution (not good for traction though). We had to use large bore hose or the pump would cavitate when the oil was cold. Never had a gearbox or diff problem. Thats all I can remember!!"

https://www.pistonhe...0&f=90&t=668193

 

Quote (Mk1 Forum)

"A guy in Harrogate used to have a dry sumped 'big' Arden race car, I think the dry sumping helped mainly to control the oil temperature and the foaming as there was so much more oil in circulation and so little actually in the gearbox. He certainly had the results and the performance to back the value of the system up, but I suspect modern oils are probably the better option now."

https://mk1-forum.ne...opic.php?t=8713

 

Note: The extra gear on the camshaft below drives an oil pump (where the fuel pump was) for the dry sump system used in the Formula Junior (A-Series) race cars.

I believe the second drive on some cams was also used for the later Lucas Mechanical Fuel Injection system.

 

 

 

Apparently the Group A MG Metro touring cars also ran a dry sump system (see photo below) and Cooper (Downton) tried dry sumping for a time on Gordon Spice's Britax Mini racer in 1969 with little improvement reported by the driver.

 

Thank you for finding those.  Interesting reading.

[PoolGuy]

 

I wonder how the syncro would be affected? Dry clutch, dry sump are obviously a thing, but dry gearbox?

The dry sumping was more than likely used with dog gear sets.

 

Yeah, and I suppose it depends how 'dry' it is.