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Power Steering - Options ?


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#16 Ethel

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Posted 31 October 2024 - 08:46 PM

 

"but I'd say here they'd almost certainly be a reversible worm" - wouldn't that require the motor to make torque while stalled? Sure there must be some sort of failsafe that won't impede the manual steering effort.

 

I don't know a lot about EPS at this time, but I'd say they'd have to have a fail safe for if the fuse blew or some other electrical failure resulting in no assistance. Many of these also seem to be connected to an ECU of sorts to regulate and even drop off the amount of assistance from the EPS, high at low speeds to nil at higher speeds, so surely they must be capable of being reverse driven ?

One issue I do see possibly with many adapted conversions is they all have a torque sensor to detect driver inputs and just how much effort the driver is putting in to the system from the steering wheel. The small bit of info I have read up on, it seems they use a torsion rod in the column and a sensor to measure the difference in angle between the input and output sides of the torsion rod. Clever but effective, though I can't help but feel this may add some sponginess to the feel of the steering ?  The other issue is that torsion rod would likely be 'tuned' to a particular torque / effort for the original car they were designed for and may not readily translate from a heavier to a lighter (or viki-verka) set up. I might also be reading / thinking too much in to this too ?  I also have some concerns to such a set ups longevity in an off-roading application where there loads of feed back from the wheels and rack ?   This is why I felt an old school hydraulic system has high appeal, though far more complex to fit up and not as easily 'tunable' as an electric system might be. The EPS seem to use ball screws which in some ways can fair OK with pounding or can collapse altogether. I've seen first hand how recirculating ball steering boxes fair on rally cars.

 

Another factor I do like to consider is if it has a serious issue while away is repairing or over-riding it, I feel this is a down side to a hydraulic set up and it would be easy enough to carry a spare standard column for a worse case with EPS.

Much to weigh up !
 

 

I can't help reinventing the wheel  >_<. The danger of too little knowledge I guess. Looking forward to being educated - without having to lift a spanner  :P 

 

Strain gauges do need some physical displacement, but they can be on a microscopic scale - the twist across a cm of shaft could be detected by a resistive sensor  that goes back & forth across that cm thousands of times. It can  sense what we'd sense if the steering column was tens of metres long.

 

 

... one side of the system will be the same regardless of the vehicle - the bit with hands & arms will in all likelihood be as good as identical in the anthropometric data they worked to. There's also no mechanical advantage in a steering column if it turns as much at one end as the other so, save for a touch of steering wheel diameter, any power assistance ought to be in the same ball park regardless of rack gearing and anything thereafter.

 

Even so, I did spot a custom control unit marketed with piccies of a Corsa with a roll-cage. Heavier donor should nudge in the right direction for off-road too. :-)



#17 mab01uk

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Posted 31 October 2024 - 11:43 PM

Just remembered these interesting comments below from an ex-Rover Engineer who worked on the R50 MINI power steering and front suspension development...I think fully electric power steering has much improved since 1999 when the R50 MINI was under development and all later MINI's after 2006 went to fully electric EPS but I have yet to drive one that is as good as the original Electro-Hydraulic steering on the original R50 MINI's, I even like the unique whining noise it makes when parking! :lol:

 

Ex-Rover Engineer Robin Hall says he is proudest of the R50 MINI's steering system because, he claims, he was responsible for changing the system late in the day.

"Up until 1999, the MINI's steering was fully electric with a powered worm-drive. But it was almost surreal: there was no kick-back or feedback. On rutted roads you couldn't feel anything, even at the limit of adhesion. I had overall responsibility for the whole front end and didn't like it. The steering department said it could be fixed with a tweak to the steering, so BMW told us to get it sorted. But instead I knocked together a simulator with an electro-hydraulic Rover 25 rack. The original simulator had a Ford Escort rack modified for the right geometry and it felt good, but BMW drove both and chose mine. Fully electric steering was a pet project at Rover and several engineers had tried it in a Mondeo, where it worked well. It was just inappropriate in a Mini – there was no joy.
It was very hard to package a steering pump on the MINI engine. It's extraordinarily tight under the bonnet. We had to re-write the rule book on tyre and component clearances. In fact we threw the rule book away. There's meant to be 15mm clearance for tyres. Now there is actually a benign foul in extreme circumstances. It was a packaging nightmare – or miracle – and only got done thanks to computer-aided design."

Former Rover Engineer on the new (R50) MINI Development:-

https://www.theminif...1997/?p=1297947

 

Again just for interest (as I don't think this system would be very easy to install and engineer into a classic Mini) the video below gives some good info on the R50 MINI Hydro-Electric steering pump.

 

 



#18 Steam

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Posted 01 November 2024 - 04:07 AM

Have you had a look at the easysteer micromotor, seems to be the most compact eps.

#19 mab01uk

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Posted 01 November 2024 - 09:03 AM

Another factor I do like to consider is if it has a serious issue while away is repairing or over-riding it, I feel this is a down side to a hydraulic set up and it would be easy enough to carry a spare standard column for a worse case with EPS.

Much to weigh up !
 

 

When a hydraulic power steering set up fails the steering often becomes extremely heavy due to the more complex design of the powered steering rack. I remember when failures were first reported of the electric pump on the R50 MINI forums, some driver said they thought they had suddenly lost all steering movement...depending if the drivers arm muscles were strong enough to take control!

 

As you say the advantage of using an EPS type steering column set up is that the Moke steering rack can remain as original, so if there was a failure while you were away ideally a spare standard column could be swapped back.....an essential backup to have on some of those Moke trips into remote areas of the Australian Outback!


Edited by mab01uk, 01 November 2024 - 09:04 AM.


#20 mab01uk

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Posted 22 November 2024 - 05:30 PM

This article below scanned from a 1995 Autocar magazine on the MGF EPS system may be of interest.

 

lgGmVyYh.jpg

 

JZ7zUD7h.jpg

 



#21 Spider

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Posted 23 November 2024 - 02:47 AM

Many thanks for posting that article Martin.

 

Great description as to how the system senses and acts.

 

Maybe I'm over-thinking this but it also highlights why it's not a simple system t adapt when taking it from one car and fitting it to another. The torsion bar would need to be selected depending on the basic un-assisted effort needed of the car. If it's too light, it would give assistance most of the time and if it's too heavy, it won't sense input and output differences or at least, not too well.

 

I've notice many conversion kits have a simple potentimeter that's external. It appears these need tweaking as to how much assistance the driver might need at any given moment. They don't seem to be 'set and forget' like a properly designed set up.

 

While I am keeping the idea of EPAS in mind, I may yet just make and fit a very simple reduction gearbox. I don't think it's needs much of a ratio, probably around 1.3-ish:1.



#22 Steam

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Posted 23 November 2024 - 05:10 AM

You could always fit an airplane wing to the bonnet!! ;-)

#23 Bobbins

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Posted 23 November 2024 - 08:40 AM

Just a thought, before going to the trouble of fitting power steering have you considered fitting a much larger steering wheel? Cheap fix and nothing lost if it doesn’t provide the effect you’re looking for.
Early Minis with big steering wheels and narrow tyres certainly didn’t have heavy steering, an increase in steering weight was the first thing I noticed when I swapped to a 13” wheel on my first Mini.

#24 Ethel

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Posted 23 November 2024 - 01:32 PM

If it's using a pot, it ought to be easy to tune with another pot. You're just creating ohms for the controller one way or the other.

 

The gear must be sufficiently hypoid to allow the reaction force to act on the motor, or the pot (and driver) wouldn't be able to sense the effect of steering castor past the worm gear. As it looks to be a simple motor (2 wires) you could have some toasty toes when it's stalled, or else there's some stall control circuitry that will do something to the the steering effort too. The pot is also drawn with 4 wires which suggests it's not a simple 3 wire pot. Using 2 pots, probably with opposing resistance curves,  would make sense for failsafe redundancy & direction sensing.

 

There looks to be more gubbins above the worm-wheel in the cutaway than the cross section. A clutch operated by motor output could make sense.



#25 Ethel

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Posted 23 November 2024 - 01:40 PM

You could always fit an airplane wing to the bonnet!! ;-)

 

Lift-off understeer   :unsure:



#26 Spider

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Posted 24 November 2024 - 06:42 AM

Yeah,,, wings and lift off understeer works,,,, but sadly inverse to when I would need it !

 

 

Just a thought, before going to the trouble of fitting power steering have you considered fitting a much larger steering wheel? Cheap fix and nothing lost if it doesn’t provide the effect you’re looking for.
Early Minis with big steering wheels and narrow tyres certainly didn’t have heavy steering, an increase in steering weight was the first thing I noticed when I swapped to a 13” wheel on my first Mini.

 

Cheers for the suggestion. I'm running 15" wheel now and I wouldn't go any smaller. Likewise, for comfort and being able to get in and out, I don't want to go any bigger. On a Mini I would, but in the Moke, there's those big side boxes to get over.

 

 

If it's using a pot, it ought to be easy to tune with another pot. You're just creating ohms for the controller one way or the other.

 

The gear must be sufficiently hypoid to allow the reaction force to act on the motor, or the pot (and driver) wouldn't be able to sense the effect of steering castor past the worm gear. As it looks to be a simple motor (2 wires) you could have some toasty toes when it's stalled, or else there's some stall control circuitry that will do something to the the steering effort too. The pot is also drawn with 4 wires which suggests it's not a simple 3 wire pot. Using 2 pots, probably with opposing resistance curves,  would make sense for failsafe redundancy & direction sensing.

 

There looks to be more gubbins above the worm-wheel in the cutaway than the cross section. A clutch operated by motor output could make sense.

 

I think perhaps I let a few bits out ?

There's a digital type pot on the drive itself. This is driven (in the types I've looked at and it appears the MGF type) by a Cam that moves with the output shaft and the digital pot on the input shaft. As misalignment occurs by twisting of the torsion bar the Cam no long aligns in a neutral position for the digital pot, that then feeds back to the black box to tell the electric motor how much to turn and how much effort to put in to it. As the vehicle speed increases and the steering naturally becomes lighter and it's more desirable to have steering inputs less sensitive, the EPAS normally tapers out, generally starting to taper off at about 8 mph and all off by about 20 mph.

So, the 'tune' of that torsion bar is reasonably important to get right for the intended vehicle.

The aftermarket kits I have seen kinda get around that by ignoring the digital pot and having an external analogue pot that the driver needs to twiddle depending on how much assistance they think they need at any time. If it's set for maximum assistance for the car park and left that way, it's potentially dangerous at 60 mph. I've seen a few that include a GPS speedo pick up (as well as the external pot), but they don't taper off with speed, that are either on or off. It's all too 'heath-robinson' for my liking.






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