25 replies to this topic

[Spider]

Hey all,

 

I'm likely needing to go to Power Steering in the Moke due to an issue with my neck and shoulder.

I've looked around a little at what others have done. I have seen the Corsa conversion, but that won't actually fit. I was wondering if there's anything a bit more compact or that has the motor in line with the column, rather than poking out at 90⁰ - or any other option gratefully considered.

Cheers,
Chris

[stoneface]

Any of these any good

https://www.holden.c...-for-mini-spi-1

https://www.minispor...r-steering.html

https://www.moss-eur...r-stee-34--5525

https://www.ezpowersteering.co.uk/

 

But all have motor out the side.

Edited by stoneface, 30 October 2024 - 07:59 AM.

[mab01uk]

I remember in the UK Minis and Metros were often converted for disabled drivers by 'Motability' and fitted with power steering back in the day. There are a couple of interesting comments on an old TMF thread linked below that might be worth researching into further.

 

Quote:

"Minis converted for disabled drivers by Motability were fitted with power steering. This was done using a small hydraulic servo fitted to the base of the standard steering column which had been cut shorter to allow it to fit. It can be done without altering the steering column if you can find the rack from a Mk2 Princess, which is more or less exactly the same as a Mini rack but is powered which makes it a little bulkier. There may be some adjustment of the panels around it needed to make it fit but it is essentially the same rack. Both systems have been used with the Princess pump fitted to the front of the engine, you can make brackets but I believe there is a different A series front plate from another model that will accept the pump. You'll have to go scrap yard diving to find these things."

https://www.theminif...ring/?p=2294716

 

https://www.theminif...ering/?p=257792

 

Quote:
"I have fitted a Clio power rack to my clubby estate. I bought a Metro based invalid car sometime back which had a power steering pump fitted to the engine.
After talking to the original manufacturers, they confirmed that it will run my small clio rack."

https://www.theminif...ring/?p=2295138

 

These older systems used a hydraulic pump before Electric power steering became common which means no bulky electric motor on the steering column but of course a suitable rack is needed and under bonnet space for mounting a belt driven pump. Another type of hybrid system is used on the early R50/R53 MINIs which have hydraulic/electric power steering where the pump is powered by an electric motor rather than driven off the engine due to lack of under bonnet space. The pump and motor are combined together as one unit and make the distinctive whining noise sometimes heard when an early R50/R53 MINI is parking.

Edited by mab01uk, 30 October 2024 - 10:44 AM.

[Ethel]

Problem solved!

 

They all look pretty similar

 

Ebay is a useful tool to find piccies to compare - Toyota Aygo & Fiat 500 look to be alternatives.

 

Ali Express will flog you a kit for a golf cart too, but they all seem to have a worm drive motor sticking out the side.

[MikeRotherham]

I fitted the EZ Powersteering kit.

 

It was the most compact unit I could find.

Edited by MikeRotherham, 30 October 2024 - 04:38 PM.

[Avtovaz]

Dont forget if you fit an electric one, you need to brace it up where it mounts as its not just holding the column up now, its stopping the rotational forces.

 

The corsa one, you can strip it down, and weld the mini shaft into it, so you can put the column where you want it if that helps.

[MikeRotherham]

Dont forget if you fit an electric one, you need to brace it up where it mounts as its not just holding the column up now, its stopping the rotational forces.

 

The corsa one, you can strip it down, and weld the mini shaft into it, so you can put the column where you want it if that helps.

I considered about the rotational forces.

 

So far the usual clamp holding the steering column to the dash appears to be sufficient.

 

I would imagine EZ would have considered this and added some kind of bracing if they thought it was required.

 

I did replace the shear bolt with a conventional bolt for a couple of reasons:

 

I sheared a couple of bolts when installing and adjusting the column.

 

I figured I could torque a conventional bolt a bit higher than the shear bolt if needed.

[Tupers]

I don’t think I’ve seen an EPAS column where the motor doesn’t come out at 90 degrees.

A Suzuki Ignis unit looks a little slimmer than the go to Corsa B one and a Toyota Aygo motor looks shorter so might be worth looking at?

[stuart bowes]

I'm wondering if torque is one of the limiting factors in the design

 

as in, to get sufficient turning force you need certain gear ratios, but with the motor body being a certain diameter it's difficult to maintain the right distance from the steering shaft longitudinally.

 

whereas, going across the steering shaft with a worm gear is more effective for various reasons, not only good torque but also it's kind of a one-way deal, the motor works on the steering shaft but not the other way around (Although, presumably there is some sort of clutch mechanism or something in case of failure)

 

it would be an interesting challenge maybe to strip the corsa one down and engineer some sort of alternative arrangement with some kind of sensible failsafe(s) built in.. albeit well beyond my own capabilities

 

presumably you already considered and ruled out the simpler option of a larger steering wheel and/or narrower tyres 

Edited by stuart bowes, 31 October 2024 - 12:24 AM.

[Spider]

Many thanks for the replies here so far.

 

I should have included in my post that on a Moke, unlike a Mini, the footwell space is smaller

Ethel & Stuart,,,, no, a steel wheel is out of the question !!! The one I have now I made about 2 years back after not finding what I was after and I'm in love with it. It's just perfect. However, Stuart, I do have a pair of Metro steering arms on the bench. They are longer and maybe all I need, I wanted to examine the steering geometry and any implications before fitting them, as well as just how much advantage they might offer, but at this point in time, they aren't off the menu. The units that have the motor at 90⁰ to the shaft I agree with you, appear to be a worm drive, but I'd say here they'd almost certainly be a reversible worm (as in the worm can be driven by the worm wheel, ie, not locking or braking).

 

Stoney, many thanks for those links, the item from Holdens looks interesting.

 

Martin, many thanks for that. I found that quite interesting and often wondered if there was a hydraulic solution. In many ways, this has a lot of appeal.

 

Avotaz & Mike - I hear you on the torque forces and just where they would be transmitted. I'll likely be scratch making a new pedal box as part of this project and certainly, if it's a column mounted EPS I end up with, that would be suitably beefed up where the column mounts.

 

Tuppers, thanks for the heads up on likely smaller units. I am suspecting I'll need to make something and these might be a good base unit to start from.

 

Locally, the popular conversion appears to be a column from a model Suzuki which was also re-badged as a Holden Barina. I am actually guessing it's the same one as the Corsa (we didn't have Vaxhalls here, but similar models were sometimes sold on our market under a Holden badge).

If I was to go with a column type EPS, I'd like to put the motor so it ends up in the pedal box (most likely through an angle drive ?).

[nicklouse]

Ford has quite a few column mounted set ups but again 90 degrees. Will dig out some pics and numbers later.

[Steam]

I have Armstrong Power Steering on my Mini.

[Ethel]

Surprised they  seem to be just regular motors. Seems the ideal application for a stepper motor.

 

 

"but I'd say here they'd almost certainly be a reversible worm" - wouldn't that require the motor to make torque while stalled? Sure there must be some sort of failsafe that won't impede the manual steering effort.

[Spider]

"but I'd say here they'd almost certainly be a reversible worm" - wouldn't that require the motor to make torque while stalled? Sure there must be some sort of failsafe that won't impede the manual steering effort.

 

I don't know a lot about EPS at this time, but I'd say they'd have to have a fail safe for if the fuse blew or some other electrical failure resulting in no assistance. Many of these also seem to be connected to an ECU of sorts to regulate and even drop off the amount of assistance from the EPS, high at low speeds to nil at higher speeds, so surely they must be capable of being reverse driven ?

One issue I do see possibly with many adapted conversions is they all have a torque sensor to detect driver inputs and just how much effort the driver is putting in to the system from the steering wheel. The small bit of info I have read up on, it seems they use a torsion rod in the column and a sensor to measure the difference in angle between the input and output sides of the torsion rod. Clever but effective, though I can't help but feel this may add some sponginess to the feel of the steering ?  The other issue is that torsion rod would likely be 'tuned' to a particular torque / effort for the original car they were designed for and may not readily translate from a heavier to a lighter (or viki-verka) set up. I might also be reading / thinking too much in to this too ?  I also have some concerns to such a set ups longevity in an off-roading application where there loads of feed back from the wheels and rack ?   This is why I felt an old school hydraulic system has high appeal, though far more complex to fit up and not as easily 'tunable' as an electric system might be. The EPS seem to use ball screws which in some ways can fair OK with pounding or can collapse altogether. I've seen first hand how recirculating ball steering boxes fair on rally cars.

 

Another factor I do like to consider is if it has a serious issue while away is repairing or over-riding it, I feel this is a down side to a hydraulic set up and it would be easy enough to carry a spare standard column for a worse case with EPS.

Much to weigh up !
 

[nicklouse]

Here is an image of a focus one.

 

will drop you an email with more info.

 image001.png   196.51K   2 downloads

not ideal but.