41 replies to this topic

[gazza82]

SORN - statutary off road notification. Basically telling the DVLA that the car is not being used (on public roads at least) so they don't come after you for not paying vehcile duty or MOT expiring.

Or not having the vehicle insured too.

[Spider]

SORN - statutary off road notification. Basically telling the DVLA that the car is not being used (on public roads at least) so they don't come after you for not paying vehcile duty or MOT expiring.

 

Many thanks for that. Sorry to sound cynical however, that comes across as an excuse to fine people to me, especially these days with the cops having number plate recognition, though I well maybe missing something.

 

Here, we just simply don't pay it if we don't wish to re-new. It does vary a little from state to state, here in NSW after 3 months of being out of Registration (Tax I think in your part of the world) we are required to hand in the number plates (though there's no fine for not doing so) or pay a fee and have them held and they can be refitted at a latter time to the same car or another car.

In South Australia, it's a great system. You just don't pay it when you it comes up for renewal. Then when you want to use the vehicle again, (even many many years later) you can pay as little as 3 months worth. no inspection, just pay and drive. I'm not fully up to speed with other states.

[mbolt998]

I've moved this over to Chat, while it's been an interesting read, it's not technical in nature.

 

Can someone explain o the uninitiated (me !) what SORN is ?  I don't think we have that here (Aust).

 

You're also lucky that you are able to free look up these wonderful statistics, this kind of information is quite off limits here.

Thanks for moving it! I realized it was in the wrong forum just after I posted it but couldn't find a way to move it.

[mbolt998]

 

SORN - statutary off road notification. Basically telling the DVLA that the car is not being used (on public roads at least) so they don't come after you for not paying vehcile duty or MOT expiring.

 

Many thanks for that. Sorry to sound cynical however, that comes across as an excuse to fine people to me, especially these days with the cops having number plate recognition, though I well maybe missing something.

 

Here, we just simply don't pay it if we don't wish to re-new. It does vary a little from state to state, here in NSW after 3 months of being out of Registration (Tax I think in your part of the world) we are required to hand in the number plates (though there's no fine for not doing so) or pay a fee and have them held and they can be refitted at a latter time to the same car or another car.

In South Australia, it's a great system. You just don't pay it when you it comes up for renewal. Then when you want to use the vehicle again, (even many many years later) you can pay as little as 3 months worth. no inspection, just pay and drive. I'm not fully up to speed with other states.

 

 

Yes we used to have that system here (although I think 6m tax is the minimum and it costs more than half of 12m). SORN doesn't seem to make much logical sense. The computer knows if you bought tax anyway so anyone caught on the road without tax can be fined anyway. I guess it just made any ambiguity and errors in their database your fault. They may have brought it in as a preparation for transitioning to a more detailed computer system that stored insurance and MOT as well. Police could always tell from number plate if you had insurance but probably not tax, and certainly not MOT, and that might have been their own system, not the DVLA one.

[Spider]

Yes we used to have that system here (although I think 6m tax is the minimum and it costs more than half of 12m). SORN doesn't seem to make much logical sense. The computer knows if you bought tax anyway so anyone caught on the road without tax can be fined anyway. I guess it just made any ambiguity and errors in their database your fault. They may have brought it in as a preparation for transitioning to a more detailed computer system that stored insurance and MOT as well. Police could always tell from number plate if you had insurance but probably not tax, and certainly not MOT, and that might have been their own system, not the DVLA one.

 

Cheers for that. I'm now starting to get a feel for how the UK system works, it always seemed to me to have quirks, but it's really a case of what you have been bought up with or come to learn.

 

Here in NSW we do have annual inspections, similar to your MOT, but in reality, not as stringent. They are known here as a Pink Slip Inspection (as the hand written forms that were in use up to a few years back were pink). We can't renew our Registration until we have both a Pink Slip and our 3rd Party Personal Insurance (Green Slip) paid, without them, the Gov. simply won't accept payment for the Registration. Compared to the UK, ours is a shed load more expensive too.
 

[smurfomatic]

It's an especially strange system as it was only introduced in 1998, about the time that computerised records meant it was easier to keep track of everything - so could have switched to the Australian system of don't pay, it's off the road.

 

For example, my Mini Marcos was never SORNed as it was taken off the road in 1990, it was just left in a shed. 

[mab01uk]

"The SORN system was introduced to help police more easily identify uninsured and untaxed vehicles. 

With automatic number plate recognition, tied in to the police register, patrol cars can automatically let police know when there is an uninsured vehicle in front of them, parked or passing by on the other side of the road.

While that was good for catching rule breakers, it was a potential problem for people who had parked up off a public road and not insured their cars because they didn't use them.

The introduction of statutory off road notices was said to get round that problem."

• Until SORN was introduced, offenders could only be caught if they were pulled over while driving without insurance or if they were reported by someone

• The Motor Insurer’s Bureau (MIB) keeps track of all uninsured cars in its database, and warning letters/fines are automatically sent to those car owners without tax or insurance

More here:-

https://www.uswitch....-to-sorn-a-car/

 

 

Originally when SORN was introduced it had to be renewed every year and you were sent a reminder to renew your SORN or tax the vehicle. In the same way that an owner with a taxed vehicle gets a reminder notification in the post. This was changed a few years later and now SORN only has to be declared again when there is a change of owner. ie. When a vehicle changes hands, the SORN declaration is not transferred; a declaration is required from the new keeper.  This is to ensure that DVLA are aware of changes to the vehicle record and have an accurate update of the new keeper's details.

 

However, if your car isn't being used, but is still being kept on a public road you still need tax and insurance, even if the vehicle is not in use.

• A SORN is only valid if the vehicle is kept in a garage, on a drive or on private land

 

DVLA quote (1998) :-

"Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN) was introduced on 31 January 1998 and affects vehicles licenced on, or after that date. The scheme aimed to ensure enhanced accuracy of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) records, by requiring vehicle keepers to contact DVLA at least once a year.  This information can then be used to identify vehicle excise duty (VED) evaders and assist police and authorities with combating vehicle crime."

 

Not that changes in the vehicle taxation rules always have the desired or expected result....

eg. It was interesting to see the huge increase in vehicle road tax evasion that happened once paper tax discs were no longer required to be displayed.........(see link below).

 

DVLA decision found to have backfired as figures show government has lost as much as eight times as it hoped to save

"The government looks to have lost as much as £80m of revenue as a result of its decision to scrap car tax discs. The move has also led to a doubling in the number of unlicensed vehicles on British roads.

The Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) ended the need for drivers to display a valid tax disc in October 2014, saying that the move would save the taxpayer £10m a year by making the system more efficient. However, that decision looks to have backfired, after official figure showed that the exchequer has lost as much as eight times the intended saving.

An analysis of road users carried out recently showed that about 1.4% of vehicles were being driven without vehicle excise duty. This was up from just 0.6% two years ago, when a disc was still required. The Department for Transport (DfT) estimated that about 560,000 vehicles were untaxed."

https://www.theguard...g-car-tax-discs

Edited by mab01uk, 19 September 2024 - 09:50 AM.

[mbolt998]

 

 

Here in NSW we do have annual inspections, similar to your MOT, but in reality, not as stringent. They are known here as a Pink Slip Inspection (as the hand written forms that were in use up to a few years back were pink). We can't renew our Registration until we have both a Pink Slip and our 3rd Party Personal Insurance (Green Slip) paid, without them, the Gov. simply won't accept payment for the Registration. Compared to the UK, ours is a shed load more expensive too.
 

 

Ours basically the same. You can't buy tax without insurance and MOT (and never could even before computers). I used to arrange it so my MOT ran out the day after the tax was due so that I could tax it on the old one and have a bit more flexibility :)

 

Although it was (and still is, except for cars >40y old) an offence not to have a valid MOT it was very rarely enforced except by the fact that you had to produce it to buy the tax disk. Since the tax disk was displayed in the car you had a much higher risk of getting caught if that was missing or expired.

 

Occasionally when plod stopped you he would ask you to produce various documents (usually driving licence, insurance and MOT) at the local police station within 7d. But they often didn't even ask for the MOT and the penalty for not having one was very minor. You wouldn't get points on your licence. They'd basically just tell you to get one. There are however big fines for actually unsafe things like bald tyres (whether you have a valid MOT or not).

 

I don't think they care about the MOT much now but it will probably flag up on their computer.

 

I'm also not 100% sure of the details of the new rules for MOT-exempt historics. You don't have to have an MOT. But if you take it for one anyway, and it fails, then I think it might come up on their computer as having failed. Then they might stop you and start being annoying even though you haven't done anything wrong. So if you want one you're better just to ask the garage to do an informal inspection of all the same things that are on the MOT test and let you know.

[stuart bowes]

from what I've heard, having a close associate who did a fair bit of plod driving with ANPR..  the MOT 'ping' comes up a lot of the time while they're out and about, the way he told it it was basically just assumed that most of the time it was just delays with the DVLA updating their records and for the most part they just ignore it

 

other more obvious factors such as the way the car is being driven, or obvious states of disrepair, lights not working, funny smells coming from your car.. or lack of insurance, they're the reasons why you get a tug.  as well as obviously if they've had your numberplate flagged up for some reason

 

I was also wondering about MOT's on historic cars.. it can't hurt to get one done but as you say a 'fail' might mess you up.  still, on those sorts of cars the owners are likely to take it straight home and do the repair (or be more conscious of issues in the first place before it even becomes a problem)  as well as having a 'daily' to use in the mean time

Edited by stuart bowes, 19 September 2024 - 01:33 PM.

[Shooter63]

Hopefully mab01uk can confirm as he seems to have a bottomless pit of BMC/Leyland info, but were the 70's years with very low car counts when 'Red Robbo' and his merry bunch of idiots were trying to destroy the country by going out on strike every other week, hence no cars actually produced. As for the latter years with high SORN to road going ratios, do these cars still actually exist or are they simply V5's sitting in people's draws and forgotten about?

Shooter

[mbolt998]

Hopefully mab01uk can confirm as he seems to have a bottomless pit of BMC/Leyland info, but were the 70's years with very low car counts when 'Red Robbo' and his merry bunch of idiots were trying to destroy the country by going out on strike every other week, hence no cars actually produced. As for the latter years with high SORN to road going ratios, do these cars still actually exist or are they simply V5's sitting in people's draws and forgotten about?

Shooter

 

I think that's possibly right. Michael Edwardes came in at the end of the 1970s and various documentaries I've seen claimed there was at least a short-lived period of optimism and improved industrial relations.

 

1980 was also the year the Metro came out and so marks the point at which the Mini (which was nearly axed) transitioned from "basic small car" to "classic car you buy new", a bit like a Morgan or something. So maybe people were already babying them a bit more from that point.

[mab01uk]

For interest these are the yearly production figures for the Mini 1959 - 2000 from AROnline.

 

Ian Nicholls unravels the production data to try and come up with a definitive number of Minis built.

He finds more questions than answers – but it looks like more than six million of all types were made:-

https://www.aronline...roduction-many/

 

 

[Shooter63]

For interest these are the yearly production figures for the Mini 1959 - 2000 from AROnline.
 
Ian Nicholls unravels the production data to try and come up with a definitive number of Minis built.
He finds more questions than answers – but it looks like more than six million of all types were made:-
https://www.aronline...roduction-many/
 

Excellent piece, but that puts my thoughts on the strike idea out the window, the trouble is it opened a new can of worms up for me, my MK1 is an import, I thought it was a Portuguese CKD but apparently these wasn't a factory in Portugal, more investigation required me thinks.

Shooter

[68+86auto]

 

SORN - statutary off road notification. Basically telling the DVLA that the car is not being used (on public roads at least) so they don't come after you for not paying vehcile duty or MOT expiring.

 

Many thanks for that. Sorry to sound cynical however, that comes across as an excuse to fine people to me, especially these days with the cops having number plate recognition, though I well maybe missing something.

 

Here, we just simply don't pay it if we don't wish to re-new. It does vary a little from state to state, here in NSW after 3 months of being out of Registration (Tax I think in your part of the world) we are required to hand in the number plates (though there's no fine for not doing so) or pay a fee and have them held and they can be refitted at a latter time to the same car or another car.

In South Australia, it's a great system. You just don't pay it when you it comes up for renewal. Then when you want to use the vehicle again, (even many many years later) you can pay as little as 3 months worth. no inspection, just pay and drive. I'm not fully up to speed with other states.

 

 

Here in QLD, The only time an inspection is required is when the vehicle is changing owners or the registration has expired for more than three months. As long as you keep paying the registration the vehicle could never require an inspection for it's life if the owner is never changed.

 

One interesting thing for international people to know is that nowhere in Australia has ever had emissions testing as part of inspections (as far as I'm aware).

[mab01uk]

 

For interest these are the yearly production figures for the Mini 1959 - 2000 from AROnline.
 
Ian Nicholls unravels the production data to try and come up with a definitive number of Minis built.
He finds more questions than answers – but it looks like more than six million of all types were made:-
https://www.aronline...roduction-many/
 

Excellent piece, but that puts my thoughts on the strike idea out the window, the trouble is it opened a new can of worms up for me, my MK1 is an import, I thought it was a Portuguese CKD but apparently these wasn't a factory in Portugal, more investigation required me thinks.

Shooter

 

 

With regard to Portuguese Minis I found the extract below taken from this ad for a 1965 Morris Mini Cooper S 1275cc.
"The car was originally assembled in Portugal at the Setubal factory which was partially owned by British Leyland. This enabled British Leyland to sell cars in Portugal as they were deemed nationally produced. This was more for show than anything else though, as the cars left the UK as a virtually assembled kit. All the workers at the Setubal factory in fact did were to paint and then assemble the cars. Other than some extra colours being available they were indistinguishable from the UK assembled cars and exactly the same specification."
https://www.paddock4...per-s-mk1-1965/

 

Also there was this thread on the Mk1 Forum about them a while back:-

Mini Assembly in Setúbal / Portugal

Edited by mab01uk, 20 September 2024 - 03:45 PM.