27 replies to this topic

[nicklouse]

The turbo pump is a good choice. Whichever you have it can only push the pressure relief valve open. It'll be easier to drill a crank if needed rather than undrill one that isn't.

Would not.

too much capacity. Heats the oil too much. Have run standard cranks on Hillclimb cars to 8.5 to 9k without issues. That is to say no prolonged time at those RPM.

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i'll go with non cross drilled and see the results from there

An awful lot of the fun of motor-sport, is just taking part.  Enjoy your BMW 16V for a couple of years, and if something goes wrong, or better turns up, you have something to move on to.

 

I was never envious of pot-hunters in their Ferrari, who led the race all the way and collected a useless trophy.  Better to have bought solid silver quart tankards and quaffed bubbly on the terrace with friends, watching the sun set.

 

well yes but what if? altho it's the fun factor as you say, let alone isn't the engine alone that brings joy. 
However on an other case, for a road-going car i wouldn't recommend taking the BMW 16v head route. Regrind cams are narrowed to motorbike profiles which resulting hi durations hence very hi rpms. I think isn't ideal. 

 

 

The turbo pump is a good choice. Whichever you have it can only push the pressure relief valve open. It'll be easier to drill a crank if needed rather than undrill one that isn't.

Thank u! I will use adjustable pressure valve @70psi hot.  At first i was on, on buying an external 10L/H oil pump but was complex enough and ditched the idea. 
I came up this thinking as you say and decide not to drill .
 

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The turbo pump is a good choice. Whichever you have it can only push the pressure relief valve open. It'll be easier to drill a crank if needed rather than undrill one that isn't.

Would not.

too much capacity. Heats the oil too much. Have run standard cranks on Hillclimb cars to 8.5 to 9k without issues. That is to say no prolonged time at those RPM.

 

yes i hear u. just to justify my decision on the turbo pump is that on the bmw conversion literally are three cams to feed the oil

[Spider]

Given this is a hill climb car, I still can't see that you'll need a cross drilled crank for it and if I can suggest, I'd likely opt for a lighter grade oil too. In hill climb, the runs are short, very short compared to track or even road use so the bottom end just won't nearly be getting hot enough to need a heavier oil. You'll probably be surprised at just how much power thick oil can sap. I'd also likely ditch the turbo oil pump as well unless you are running a turbo, supercharger or a double overhead cam head that needs the additional oil flow. Trying to push more oil through the engine than it needs will again only result in power loss for zero gain anywhere else. I have seen these higher capacity pumps overcome the stock Oil Pressure Relief Valve to the point that at higher revs, the oil pressure goes sky high.

[Lplus]

Given this is a hill climb car, I still can't see that you'll need a cross drilled crank for it and if I can suggest, I'd likely opt for a lighter grade oil too. In hill climb, the runs are short, very short compared to track or even road use so the bottom end just won't nearly be getting hot enough to need a heavier oil. You'll probably be surprised at just how much power thick oil can sap. I'd also likely ditch the turbo oil pump as well unless you are running a turbo, supercharger or a double overhead cam head that needs the additional oil flow. Trying to push more oil through the engine than it needs will again only result in power loss for zero gain anywhere else. I have seen these higher capacity pumps overcome the stock Oil Pressure Relief Valve to the point that at higher revs, the oil pressure goes sky high.

To be fair, in post 12 the OP did say it was for both hill climb and track. 

[nicklouse]

Some reading on oil pumps.

 

https://www.calverst...tion-oil-pumps/

Edited by nicklouse, 18 January 2024 - 08:28 PM.

[Ethel]

Yes a turbo pump could waste some power. It produces extra volume rather than pressure - a turbo is effectively an auxiliary oil relief valve. So it won't be any worse than on a turbo engine (but without the added exhaust/oil heat exchanger).

 

Isn't it similar to the cross drilled crank? Find out what you need without causing permanent damage, then take it from there.

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Given this is a hill climb car, I still can't see that you'll need a cross drillwon't nearly be getting hot enough to need a heavier oil...

 Hey Man i hear u ! It's you Spider you've seen "break crank through the drill " and Ethel "to drill the crank if needed" that i wanted to discuss and already your inputs made my desision not to drill, as i wrote on the previous page, and i thank u very much. My question is answered. 

As for the turbo pump that came up is for the extra 10 bearings of the BMW head of the 2 extra camshafts on top on this engine that still uses the original camshaft as axle to drive the pump. For sure you've done a houndrets of A series engines and i've done maybe a dozen and be sure never useded the turbo pump before, but this is my first BMW head, and with HI reving fat lobe cams of 258°@1mm.
All i can think off is that i need Flow not pressure, Although i will invesigate the Relief valve you say. Thanks for the input.

Nicklouse, i'm with you on an engine with 5-7-8 port heads and thanks for the reading but i have my doubts for the 16v BMW past 7k rpms to be honest. 
Also i will use an adjustable pressure cap. The turbo pump is from MED, i believe is more capable than BMC one. And when i wrote 70psi pressure i was impied to the hiest rpms, at idle i will target the 25-30 psi hot. but once again i need the flow for the extra 10 bearings.  
And i have a 13or 16 row cooler if needed ready to place. The alu radiator of 80mm width, electric water pump and remote oil filter to fit. 
As i said it is a money pit.. 
On my country at spring time is more than 30°C, summer is 45 or more, in fact today it's 19°C. 
Αnd this is the reason I worry so much about the oil being enough, thick and.. but not by pressure as we all agree it absorbs power and creating hot spots on bearings. 

 

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Yes a turbo pump could waste some power. It produces extra volume rather than pressure - a turbo is effectively an auxiliary oil relief valve. So it won't be any worse than on a turbo engine (but without the added exhaust/oil heat exchanger).

 

Isn't it similar to the cross drilled crank? Find out what you need without causing permanent damage, then take it from there.

i agree yes, the turbo in fact is one bearing more add the cooling but isn't ten more bearings and double the size of the original head ? am i thinking wrong here? 

Whatever the case is i will start the engine with plenty and reduce and if needs to change the pump i will. If you like i can post my findings. 

*and i will NOT cross drill the crank. Also i've learned thanks to the forum what and how the cross drilled crank is that i was lacking the knowledge

great stuff 

[Ethel]

The pressure is secondary. As Spider said, spinning bearings make their own pressure. It's just an easy way to assess there's enough flow to them. If the pressure drops, there isn't enough flow to keep the relief valve open - excluding the oil getting hotter & thinner, but that's the other side of the same coin. 

 

There have been some BMW conversions on TMF. But I haven't seen any new ones in a while google site:theminiforum.co.uk BMW 16v 

 

also https://www.16vminiclub.com/ if you haven't already found it.

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The pressure is secondary. As Spider said, spinning bearings make their own pressure. It's just an easy way to assess there's enough flow to them. If the pressure drops, there isn't enough flow to keep the relief valve open - excluding the oil getting hotter & thinner, but that's the other side of the same coin. 

 

There have been some BMW conversions on TMF. But I haven't seen any new ones in a while google site:theminiforum.co.uk BMW 16v 

 

also https://www.16vminiclub.com/ if you haven't already found it.

totally agree. 

i haven't look for, for others or forums to be honest. thanks for the links, i will.  

[Spider]

 

Given this is a hill climb car, I still can't see that you'll need a cross drillwon't nearly be getting hot enough to need a heavier oil...

 

As for the turbo pump that came up is for the extra 10 bearings of the BMW head of the 2 extra camshafts on top on this engine that still uses the original camshaft as axle to drive the pump. For sure you've done a houndrets of A series engines and i've done maybe a dozen and be sure never useded the turbo pump before, but this is my first BMW head, and with HI reving fat lobe cams of 258°@1mm.
All i can think off is that i need Flow not pressure, Although i will invesigate the Relief valve you say. Thanks for the input.

 

Sorry I did miss that the car will also be used on the Track as well as hill climb, though my views on the crank still remain here.

Now I see you are using a BMW K1100 Head, the Turbo Pump might be justified but only if there's an external oil feed to the head. If the oil pathway is still via the original in block Cam, then that will be metering the Oil to the Head, regardless of how much volume and pressure your Oil Pump will have.

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No it is dry deck fittment.