41 replies to this topic

[Steve220]

Starting the Engine:-

Remove the spark plugs, turn the engine over on the starter motor until the oil light goes out/or the oil pressure registers pressure. Replace spark plugs.
Start the engine as you would in normal use. There is no need to run the engine at 3000 RPM for 20 minutes. Just treat the engine as if it was new for the 100 miles then off you go.
To obtain maximum performance on PH3/4/5 cams a visit down to the rolling road is advisable.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, the above is straight off of a well known camshaft manufacturer's website, enjoy.

Shooter

Is that for flat tappet knock in? Everything I've read from large brands, including most state side for v8s, all mention correctly knocking the cam in to allow micro profiling of the lobe vs follower surface.

Best phone Newman and ask them, I came across it while looking for a camshaft manufacturer to modify an existing set of camshafts for an on going project.

Shooter

Just rang them, they said for flat tappet cams run at 2.5k for 30 minutes.

[PoolGuy]

This thread is awesome. The only real useful information is this, DO WHAT THE CAM SUPPLIER TELLS YOU TO. Anything else could void your warranty. 

[PACINO]

Thanks Spider. You're a master. In my case the pistons and camshaft (Sw5) are from Swiftune. I'll send them an email simply to know what they think about what oil I'd put in the engine at the first time. The reconstruction and assembly of the engine is being done for me by an engineer friend who has built many engines.

[Shooter63]

Starting the Engine:-

Remove the spark plugs, turn the engine over on the starter motor until the oil light goes out/or the oil pressure registers pressure. Replace spark plugs.
Start the engine as you would in normal use. There is no need to run the engine at 3000 RPM for 20 minutes. Just treat the engine as if it was new for the 100 miles then off you go.
To obtain maximum performance on PH3/4/5 cams a visit down to the rolling road is advisable.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, the above is straight off of a well known camshaft manufacturer's website, enjoy.

Shooter

Is that for flat tappet knock in? Everything I've read from large brands, including most state side for v8s, all mention correctly knocking the cam in to allow micro profiling of the lobe vs follower surface.

Best phone Newman and ask them, I came across it while looking for a camshaft manufacturer to modify an existing set of camshafts for an on going project.

Shooter

Just rang them, they said for flat tappet cams run at 2.5k for 30 minutes.

Things get stranger and stranger, their website says no need, but phone them up and they say the above, even presuming the website is talking about OHC engines both types of engines are direct acting, I think they need to change the website me thinks, on the other hand when I worked at Ford Dunton we definitely didn't do the above and if you buy a brand new car you don't have to do the above. A car straight off the line used to get a quick spin on the rollers and that was that, if it was going abroad the drivers used to rag the granny out of the cars to the loading area, personally I'll stick with my " take the heat out of it and drive it" so I can get load on the engine.

Shooter

[stuart bowes]

This is all really interesting and I've been trying to absorb as much as possible but what worries me (or what I don't get, anyway) is what about someone like me who will have some degree of refurbed engine to the best of my abilities after doing as much research as I can, at the very least new rings if not rebored and new pistons, all new bearings, almost certainly a new cam (new followers, rods, I assume) trying to set up a dizzy at the same time as a freshly rebuilt pair of carbs. it all sounds like a lot to try and get working all at the same time, many variables, but I'm up for the challenge lol

 

my concern though is, the general consensus seems to be dont let it idle, go straight to 2k+ revs for 20mins (after I've done the dry minute and cool down, retorque, put coolant in to seal the gasket assuming I end up with the type that needs that..) 

 

but what if, and this is probably highly likely, it takes many attempts to get it started and then at least some faffing about to get it running well enough to go over 2k consistently for that long..  am I just ruining the engine straight away just while trying to get it running ?  or can we allow a bit of leeway at the beginning during the whole 'getting it running' stage

 

is it best if as soon as it fires into life I go straight to revving over 2k, regardless of rich/lean/timing etc (as long as it's somewhere close to right) or will for example being rich cause bore wash and more problems so it's better to try and get the mix right first..  what a minefield

 

or am I just over thinking things as usual

 

 

also.. spiders list has point no 13 - 

When up to temp (about 1 - 2 minutes), on a quiet road, drive up to 50 KPH, Then in 4th Gear, accelerate HARD from 50 KPH to 80 KPH.

Do this 3 times NO MORE

 

but then 

 

GOLDEN RULES while running in;-

DO NOT accelerate hard - ever

 

?? am i just misunderstanding or is that a bit of a contradiction (not trying to cause an argument obviously)

Edited by stuart bowes, 05 December 2023 - 09:00 PM.

[Myminiproject]

but what if, and this is probably highly likely, it takes many attempts to get it started and then at least some faffing about to get it running well enough to go over 2k consistently for that long..  am I just ruining the engine straight away just while trying to get it running ?  or can we allow a bit of leeway at the beginning during the whole 'getting it running' stage

 

is it best if as soon as it fires into life I go straight to revving over 2k, regardless of rich/lean/timing etc (as long as it's somewhere close to right) or will for example being rich cause bore wash and more problems so it's better to try and get the mix right first..  what a minefield

 

 

So my understanding is that the over 2k revs to break in is so you get enough oil splashing off the big ends onto the cam shaft while it's breaking in - hopefully I got that right. So as long as you put loads of quality assembly lube on the camshaft and bearings, tappets etc. you should be good if you're cranking and it's not firing up straight away.

 

On the accelerating hard issue, is it the difference between accelerating hard in 4th, vs in 1st/2nd?

 

MMP

[Spider]

This is all really interesting and I've been trying to absorb as much as possible but what worries me (or what I don't get, anyway) is what about someone like me who will have some degree of refurbed engine to the best of my abilities after doing as much research as I can, at the very least new rings if not rebored and new pistons, all new bearings, almost certainly a new cam (new followers, rods, I assume) trying to set up a dizzy at the same time as a freshly rebuilt pair of carbs. it all sounds like a lot to try and get working all at the same time, many variables, but I'm up for the challenge lol

 

my concern though is, the general consensus seems to be dont let it idle, go straight to 2k+ revs for 20mins (after I've done the dry minute and cool down, retorque, put coolant in to seal the gasket assuming I end up with the type that needs that..) 

 

but what if, and this is probably highly likely, it takes many attempts to get it started and then at least some faffing about to get it running well enough to go over 2k consistently for that long..  am I just ruining the engine straight away just while trying to get it running ?  or can we allow a bit of leeway at the beginning during the whole 'getting it running' stage

 

is it best if as soon as it fires into life I go straight to revving over 2k, regardless of rich/lean/timing etc (as long as it's somewhere close to right) or will for example being rich cause bore wash and more problems so it's better to try and get the mix right first..  what a minefield

 

or am I just over thinking things as usual

 

 

also.. spiders list has point no 13 - 

When up to temp (about 1 - 2 minutes), on a quiet road, drive up to 50 KPH, Then in 4th Gear, accelerate HARD from 50 KPH to 80 KPH.

Do this 3 times NO MORE

 

but then 

 

GOLDEN RULES while running in;-

DO NOT accelerate hard - ever

 

?? am i just misunderstanding or is that a bit of a contradiction (not trying to cause an argument obviously)

 

In my own view from experience, you ideally need to have the engine in a state of tune before starting it that it will run satisfactorily. I do also know with modified engines, that's much more difficult. Maybe I'm pedantic, but when I used to build engines that would have wild cams, I'd usually fit a stock cam to bed the rings in, then swap over to the wilder cam. While I have banged on about glazing bores, it's not always a given that will occur, it's just given all the blood, sweat and tears to get the engine to the point of running that first time, I prefer to errr on the side of caution that run that risk. I have seen some engines that following a build the owners have let them run a high idle seemingly without issue and I have also seen plenty of others that just smoke almost from the outset from glazed bores. Running them without load may or may not allow them to glaze but I know putting some load on, they won't glaze.

Regarding your last question, yes, you are right that there sure is a conflict in what I wrote. I should have included something along the lines of " DO NOT accelerate hard - ever - except as noted in 13) above."

[Spider]

On the accelerating hard issue, is it the difference between accelerating hard in 4th, vs in 1st/2nd?

 

 

By using 4th Gear in this way, you should get the maximum gas pressure the engine can make (at that time in it's life) behind the rings to start them seating and not scuffing or glazing.
 

[Steve220]

 

 

 

 

Starting the Engine:-

Remove the spark plugs, turn the engine over on the starter motor until the oil light goes out/or the oil pressure registers pressure. Replace spark plugs.
Start the engine as you would in normal use. There is no need to run the engine at 3000 RPM for 20 minutes. Just treat the engine as if it was new for the 100 miles then off you go.
To obtain maximum performance on PH3/4/5 cams a visit down to the rolling road is advisable.

Just to throw a spanner in the works, the above is straight off of a well known camshaft manufacturer's website, enjoy.

Shooter

Is that for flat tappet knock in? Everything I've read from large brands, including most state side for v8s, all mention correctly knocking the cam in to allow micro profiling of the lobe vs follower surface.

Best phone Newman and ask them, I came across it while looking for a camshaft manufacturer to modify an existing set of camshafts for an on going project.

Shooter

Just rang them, they said for flat tappet cams run at 2.5k for 30 minutes.

Things get stranger and stranger, their website says no need, but phone them up and they say the above, even presuming the website is talking about OHC engines both types of engines are direct acting, I think they need to change the website me thinks, on the other hand when I worked at Ford Dunton we definitely didn't do the above and if you buy a brand new car you don't have to do the above. A car straight off the line used to get a quick spin on the rollers and that was that, if it was going abroad the drivers used to rag the granny out of the cars to the loading area, personally I'll stick with my " take the heat out of it and drive it" so I can get load on the engine.

Shooter

 

 

There is a definitive difference between an OHC with buckets vs a flat tappet cam - especially with run in procedures. Frankly, modern engines with hydraulic lifters don't need any special treatment, however our old pushrod style flat tappet designs do. 

[Steve220]

 

but what if, and this is probably highly likely, it takes many attempts to get it started and then at least some faffing about to get it running well enough to go over 2k consistently for that long..  am I just ruining the engine straight away just while trying to get it running ?  or can we allow a bit of leeway at the beginning during the whole 'getting it running' stage

 

is it best if as soon as it fires into life I go straight to revving over 2k, regardless of rich/lean/timing etc (as long as it's somewhere close to right) or will for example being rich cause bore wash and more problems so it's better to try and get the mix right first..  what a minefield

 

 

So my understanding is that the over 2k revs to break in is so you get enough oil splashing off the big ends onto the cam shaft while it's breaking in - hopefully I got that right. So as long as you put loads of quality assembly lube on the camshaft and bearings, tappets etc. you should be good if you're cranking and it's not firing up straight away.

 

On the accelerating hard issue, is it the difference between accelerating hard in 4th, vs in 1st/2nd?

 

MMP

 

 

That's exactly right chap! It's for cam lube. However, a spinning cam at 2000rpm (1000rpm cam speed) will pretty quickly fling off any residual cam lube. It's for the initial start so there's no metal on metal contact. Seating the cam allows the followers to spin, which is a critical part of their operation. If you pull a used engine apart, you can quickly see if they have stuck as the wear is uneven.

 

 

Adding a point to the conundrum of first start for run in - It is a fine balance, and often feels like trying to rub your belly whilst patting your head! The main piece of advice i can give you is what I was told by JE when they made my custom forged pistons - Allowing the car to sit at 2k does little damage to the honing surface. Knocking in the cam first gives opportunity to check timings and fueling prior to bedding the rings. 2000rpm isn't the golden rpm, you can blip or rev it above that to check fuel and timing, just don't let it idle. As Spider so rightly states, getting pressure behind the rings is key, this is achieved with load and engine breaking. 

 

When i ran in Felix's engine last time, I chose a route with hills, this allowed me to select the gearing i needed to add sufficient load, and allowed the downhills to engine break and engine (rings) to cool prior to the next loading. I did 2-4k, 2-4.5, 2-5k and 2-5.5k runs. Then repeated for 40 miles. On the way back, i turned the boost up to 15psi and gave it absolute beans! As soon as i was back, dropped the oil overnight and replaced the oil filter, put Valvoline VR1 in and took it for mapping. 

 

There are a lot of old wives tales for running an engine in, however materials have changed over the years, especially rings, and honing technology is a LOT better. Some car manufacturers run their engines in prior to fitting at the factory, and some, as stated by Shooter, are run on a wheel dyno - As an FYI, this is what MGR did when i visited them in 2002. Before leaving the line they were dropped onto a set of rollers, run to 5k rpm a few times under load and sent on their merry way!

[Myminiproject]

 

...I did 2-4k, 2-4.5, 2-5k and 2-5.5k runs. 

 

 

Thank you Steve! Are these numbers rev ranges? I'm trying to figure out how I can estimate revs as my 1987 Mini City E doesn't have a rev count. I noted gear vs speed ranges in Spider's breaking in guide. But on the drive...?!

 

Best,

 

MMP

[Steve220]

 

 

...I did 2-4k, 2-4.5, 2-5k and 2-5.5k runs. 

 

 

Thank you Steve! Are these numbers rev ranges? I'm trying to figure out how I can estimate revs as my 1987 Mini City E doesn't have a rev count. I noted gear vs speed ranges in Spider's breaking in guide. But on the drive...?!

 

Best,

 

MMP

 

 

Yes chap, those are the rev ranges i use for ring break in.

 

Difficult without a rev counter, however as long as it's significantly above idle, don't overly think 2k. Even if it ends up at 3k, it'll still be ok.

Edited by Steve220, 07 December 2023 - 11:14 AM.