Learner Driver
Posted 30 November 2023 - 11:39 AM
Hi all,
I'm rebuilding my 1987 99H 998 engine and wanted to reach out to your collective wisdom and get advice on what break in oil to use and what procedure to use.
I've had the cylinders bored out +60 thou and using new pistons and rings. Head has been rebuilt for unleaded. Full rebuild of gearbox and engine.
Best wishes,
MMP
Up Into Fourth
Posted 30 November 2023 - 11:51 AM
Up Into Fourth
Posted 30 November 2023 - 12:06 PM
Learner Driver
Posted 30 November 2023 - 04:36 PM
Thanks very much guys and for Keith Calver's notes FI.
So a few more details:
The car is a 1987 Mini City E and is being rebuilt by myself for occasional road use only. It was sat for about 12 years in a garage and all the water galleries were gunked up and blocked, so had to have engine block dipped. I also asked the machine shop for advice and they recommended boring to clear a lip inside the cylinders, so I had it bored to max +60 thou for a little more power, as I don't expect to be rebuilding it again and it won't have a lot of mileage.
Gearbox had badly crunched reverse and 1st/2nd synchro, so I decided to rebuild the box as well and check bulk rings etc. While at it, I also overhauled the diff and checked bushings and changed thrust washers etc.
I use Red Line assembly lube only.
About to fit oil pump, hence asking for oil type to use for priming that and for breaking in, which I will only do once it's all in the car and connected up fully.
If you can recommend oil brand and grade for breaking in and when to change the oil, that would be great. I note Calver says 500 miles for breaking in, but I'm not sure I'll do anywhere near that in a year after rebuild!
Thanks again,
MMP
Crazy About Mini's
Posted 30 November 2023 - 04:55 PM
Moved Into The Garage
Posted 30 November 2023 - 05:10 PM
There can be a few variables in just what procedure(s) should be followed, but even before you get to this point, you need to be sure that the hone finish on the bores suits the ring and oil control ring pack. The machine shop should know, as long as they know what rings you are running.
When I had my shop, this was the contents of the sheet I'd give to customers, but bear in mind, this is based on the components I was using;-
Engine Initial Start & Running In
Oil for Running In Period
Use Penrite Running In Oil. Do not subsitute.
Initial Engine Start
1) Be sure you have a GOOD Battery
2) Test the Oil Switch on the engine. Disconnect the Black Wire between the distributor and Coil. Turn the key to RUN, the Oil Light should come ON. Disconnect the wire from the Oil Switch, it should go OFF.
DO NOT PROCEED UNTIL THIS WORKS 100% RELIABLY
3) Fill with Fuel, Water and Oil etc. Do NOT fill with Coolant at this time, only clean tap water.
4) Ensure Brakes etc are working
5) Ensure the engine is dust free. Remove the spark plugs
6) Crank the engine over (it will sound 'funny') until the Oil Light goes OFF. This may take anything from 30 secs to 5 minutes.
7) Leave it sit for a Minute and check that the Oil Light comes back ON. Crank over again and check the Oil Light goes OFF, should only take ~ 5 - 10 seconds.
8) Check for Oil Leaks. Resolve.
9) Fit Spark Plugs and HT Leads, re-connect the wire from the Distributor to the coil.
10) Be sure you have your Licence with you!
11) Start and Drive it. DO NOT ALLOW the engine revs to drop under 2000 RPM, not even for ‘a second’.
12) Drive with gentle acceleration until up to temperature.
for the first 20 minutes, keep the RPMs above 2000 RPM, then set it to 1100 RPM (run in period for Cam and / or followers).
DO NOT EXCEED THE FOLLOWING SPEEDS;-
1ST 20 KPH
2ND 40 KPH
3RD 60 KPH
4TH 80 KPH
(Basically limiting to 3000 RPM Max)
Initial Bedding in;-
13) When up to temp (about 1 - 2 minutes), on a quiet road, drive up to 50 KPH, Then in 4th Gear, accelerate HARD from 50 KPH to 80 KPH.
Do this 3 times NO MORE. Don't let the engine 'Ping'.
14) Return to Base and check over. Resolve any issues and Leave overnight.
15) Re-tension the Cylinder Head (50 ft/lbs or as recommended by the stud supplier) and Re-set the Tappets (0.012")
16) Drive around locally, observing your limited speeds, for around 200 km.
17) If all is OK, continue driving for 500 or 1000 km in total. (500 km for Iron Rings, 1000 for Chrome Rings)
18) Change Oil and Filter. Re-tension Cylinder Head and Re-set Tappets.
19) It's now run in.
20) Set idle to 650 RPM, check Ignition Timing and Carb Mixture.
21) Check for leaks, noises etc.
GOLDEN RULES while running in;-
DO NOT accelerate hard - ever
DO NOT Over-rev it (observe above limited speeds) - ever
Don't let it over-heat
Avoid Idling, up to 30 seconds is OK, but don't let it go on any longer. After you've done about 600 km, it will be OK to idle for longer periods, but still try to avoid it.
Avoid sitting on the one speed. It will be OK for a minute or so, but keep the revs changing.
Drive 'normally'
Don't ever let the engine 'Ping'
After Running In Period
Re-check Cylinder Head Tension
Re-set Tappets
Change Oil and Filter. Recommended Oil Penrite HPR30.
Drain Cooling System (ensure heater is set to HOT), flush with clean water, drain and then fill with Coolant. Penrite have a good one. Do not use Tecalloy.
There are references there to certain brands of oils and coolants, which I do know are available in the UK, though you may have to search for them.
With most ring packs, it is vital that you get some load on them right away, any by that, I mean as soon as the engine fires. If you don't, there's a risk it will glaze, and it will do that right away too. Once that happens, you'll need to have the block honed again to remove the glazing and it would also be wise to fit another set of rings again. This too is why you should only ever use a lighter oil for running in.
Up Into Fourth
Posted 30 November 2023 - 09:25 PM
Learner Driver
Posted 01 December 2023 - 12:48 PM
Spider and Steve220, thank you! That's some procedure Spider! For reference, the machine shop that bored the cylinders also fitted the rings to the pistons and those to the con rods. I will call them to ask if they considered hone vs ring material etc.
What does engine 'ping' mean? Is it the same as knocking and can you hear it as you drive? In any case, I suppose you can avoid this by not revving hard / accelerating fast while breaking in.
Can I break in the engine on my driveway for first 20 min at 2000 rpm? Or should I be driving around - issue being that I need an MoT before driving it!
Thanks again guys.
MMP
Learner Driver
Posted 01 December 2023 - 12:53 PM
Just to add, the pistons and rings are:
https://www.minispar.../P22463-60.aspx
And is the Penrite running in oil this one:
https://eshop.richar...in-oil-5-litres
Thanks
Up Into Fourth
Posted 01 December 2023 - 01:25 PM
Yeh, break in the cam on your drive. Biggest no no to a new engine is letting it idle!Spider and Steve220, thank you! That's some procedure Spider! For reference, the machine shop that bored the cylinders also fitted the rings to the pistons and those to the con rods. I will call them to ask if they considered hone vs ring material etc.
What does engine 'ping' mean? Is it the same as knocking and can you hear it as you drive? In any case, I suppose you can avoid this by not revving hard / accelerating fast while breaking in.
Can I break in the engine on my driveway for first 20 min at 2000 rpm? Or should I be driving around - issue being that I need an MoT before driving it!
Thanks again guys.
MMP
Edited by Steve220, 01 December 2023 - 01:27 PM.
Well I'll be buggered if I can find it
Posted 01 December 2023 - 02:26 PM
There can be a few variables in just what procedure(s) should be followed, but even before you get to this point, you need to be sure that the hone finish on the bores suits the ring and oil control ring pack. The machine shop should know, as long as they know what rings you are running.
When I had my shop, this was the contents of the sheet I'd give to customers, but bear in mind, this is based on the components I was using;-
Engine Initial Start & Running In
Oil for Running In Period
Use Penrite Running In Oil. Do not subsitute.
Initial Engine Start
1) Be sure you have a GOOD Battery
2) Test the Oil Switch on the engine. Disconnect the Black Wire between the distributor and Coil. Turn the key to RUN, the Oil Light should come ON. Disconnect the wire from the Oil Switch, it should go OFF.
DO NOT PROCEED UNTIL THIS WORKS 100% RELIABLY
3) Fill with Fuel, Water and Oil etc. Do NOT fill with Coolant at this time, only clean tap water.
4) Ensure Brakes etc are working
5) Ensure the engine is dust free. Remove the spark plugs
6) Crank the engine over (it will sound 'funny') until the Oil Light goes OFF. This may take anything from 30 secs to 5 minutes.
7) Leave it sit for a Minute and check that the Oil Light comes back ON. Crank over again and check the Oil Light goes OFF, should only take ~ 5 - 10 seconds.
8) Check for Oil Leaks. Resolve.
9) Fit Spark Plugs and HT Leads, re-connect the wire from the Distributor to the coil.
10) Be sure you have your Licence with you!
11) Start and Drive it. DO NOT ALLOW the engine revs to drop under 2000 RPM, not even for ‘a second’.
12) Drive with gentle acceleration until up to temperature.
for the first 20 minutes, keep the RPMs above 2000 RPM, then set it to 1100 RPM (run in period for Cam and / or followers).
DO NOT EXCEED THE FOLLOWING SPEEDS;-
1ST 20 KPH
2ND 40 KPH
3RD 60 KPH
4TH 80 KPH
(Basically limiting to 3000 RPM Max)
Initial Bedding in;-
13) When up to temp (about 1 - 2 minutes), on a quiet road, drive up to 50 KPH, Then in 4th Gear, accelerate HARD from 50 KPH to 80 KPH.
Do this 3 times NO MORE. Don't let the engine 'Ping'.
14) Return to Base and check over. Resolve any issues and Leave overnight.
15) Re-tension the Cylinder Head (50 ft/lbs or as recommended by the stud supplier) and Re-set the Tappets (0.012")
16) Drive around locally, observing your limited speeds, for around 200 km.
17) If all is OK, continue driving for 500 or 1000 km in total. (500 km for Iron Rings, 1000 for Chrome Rings)
18) Change Oil and Filter. Re-tension Cylinder Head and Re-set Tappets.
19) It's now run in.
20) Set idle to 650 RPM, check Ignition Timing and Carb Mixture.
21) Check for leaks, noises etc.
GOLDEN RULES while running in;-
DO NOT accelerate hard - ever
DO NOT Over-rev it (observe above limited speeds) - ever
Don't let it over-heat
Avoid Idling, up to 30 seconds is OK, but don't let it go on any longer. After you've done about 600 km, it will be OK to idle for longer periods, but still try to avoid it.
Avoid sitting on the one speed. It will be OK for a minute or so, but keep the revs changing.
Drive 'normally'
Don't ever let the engine 'Ping'
After Running In Period
Re-check Cylinder Head Tension
Re-set Tappets
Change Oil and Filter. Recommended Oil Penrite HPR30.
Drain Cooling System (ensure heater is set to HOT), flush with clean water, drain and then fill with Coolant. Penrite have a good one. Do not use Tecalloy.
There are references there to certain brands of oils and coolants, which I do know are available in the UK, though you may have to search for them.
With most ring packs, it is vital that you get some load on them right away, any by that, I mean as soon as the engine fires. If you don't, there's a risk it will glaze, and it will do that right away too. Once that happens, you'll need to have the block honed again to remove the glazing and it would also be wise to fit another set of rings again. This too is why you should only ever use a lighter oil for running in.
HPR30 is known as Penrite Classic Light High Zinc 20w60 in the UK. I bought a 5 gallon drum of it for £140ish.
I used your procedure (mostly) when I had my engine re-linered 5 or so years / 30,000m ago. I still have hone marks down the bores and it uses barely any oil. No need to say no more 
Moved Into The Garage
Posted 01 December 2023 - 10:57 PM
Sorry, this is a longer post, but it's as short as I feel I can sensibly make it, so bear with me.
Spider and Steve220, thank you! That's some procedure Spider! For reference, the machine shop that bored the cylinders also fitted the rings to the pistons and those to the con rods. I will call them to ask if they considered hone vs ring material etc.
What does engine 'ping' mean? Is it the same as knocking and can you hear it as you drive? In any case, I suppose you can avoid this by not revving hard / accelerating fast while breaking in.
Can I break in the engine on my driveway for first 20 min at 2000 rpm? Or should I be driving around - issue being that I need an MoT before driving it!
Thanks again guys.
MMP
Glad that was of some help.
Yes, 'Pinking' is the same as Knocking or Engine Knock. It doesn't happen because of Revs, but occurs under load, but only if the Fuel Octane used doesn't suit the engine or if the Igniting Timing is too advanced.
Be sure prior to assembly that the Bores are very VERY clean and completely free of carborundum from the honing process. The bores may (or may not!) look clean, but the way I clean is to use a white paper towel, put a generous amount of oil on that or the bores and then wipe them. The towel must come out clean apart from the Oil. If there's any darkening of the town, then the bores aren't clean. If that's left in the bores, your engine will run in very fast and also then run out even faster - it'll end up a smoker in under 50 miles !
If, and I'd say it's likely, the bores need cleaning, I do that with hot soapy water and a big bottle brush cleaner, though most kitchen cleaning brushes of a bristle type (not a scourer) will do the job. You'll find that if you are doing this with a cold block (eg, cold weather), the block will suck all the heat from the water in quick time, I usually leave the block in the sun for a few hours to warm it up or if it's a cold day, warm it with the gas torch and a 'dancing' (moving) flame for about 15 minutes. If it's cold, you'll struggle to shift the muck from the bores. Degreaser just won't clean the carborundum off, so don't even waste your time trying.
I can't say what the engine shop did for you and I won't guess or assume anything. I would also suggest here that you shouldn't either.
I've not used the rings you have (Geotez), but they have been around a very long time and have a very good reputation. I'd guess (there's that damn word !) the rings are a Plain Iron Type of a Square Edge design. The Oil Rings I feel need more attention though, Geotez do use (at least) two designs here, one is a cast type with an expander spring in the back, the other is a 3 or 4 piece type that has 2 thin scraper rings and an expander. This first type, while can be made to work, are utter junk from my experience. You really need a course hone finish to make the 'work' and a super light running oil, even then they perform extraordinarily poorly at controlling the oil. BMC were using these in the A Series Engines up to about 1964 and had loads of warranty claims as a result. They then went over to the 3 piece type (as developed in Australia by Repco no less) and never had any further issues. I did a post about these a few years back here on the forum.
Geotez have some tech tips here (but I feel they fall a bit short);- https://www.goetzepa.../tech-tips.html
In regards to running in a fresh engine there's actually 2 separate 'parts' that need to be 'run in' and for different reasons.
The first is as we have been mainly focusing on here that is that of the bores and piston rings. What needs to happen here is they need to conform to each other in a fairly controlled way in order to get the best life from the engine. If it's not done right, the bores can glaze, the rings scuff or if done too quick, results in short engine life. For most engine builds, I'd suggest following that guide I posted above and you should be sweet.
The second part is that of the Cam and the Cam Followers. If either or both of these have been replaced or re-ground, then the issue here is that fresh ground steels (and iron too) don't absorb oil or none too well. By running the engine at 2000 + RPMs for the first 20 minutes gets the oil and Cam temps up in to a range where they will start to be absorbed. The Lobes of the Cam (and the Cam Followers) are splash lubricated by Oil that's flung off the Big End Bearings. At 2000 RPM, they are turning well fast enough to be sure loads of oil is being flung off and that they oil flow is high enough.
Regarding the Rings and Bores, you can't run them in on your driveway I'm sorry, not unless it's quite long ! You need to get some load on right away. Letting it run at 2000+ RPM with no load is asking for glazed bores. If it was just the Cam and Cam Followers, yes, that would be possible to do in the drieway, though I'd suggest a period longer than 20 minutes as the oil won't get much heat in to it.
Yes, that's the one I have been using for a very long time.
I did mean to add in my other post here that while I have used these particular products for a very long time, with 100% success, there are other out in the market that are no doubt equally as good, however, as I haven't tried them there's no others I can suggest.
Up Into Fourth
Posted 02 December 2023 - 09:10 AM
Moved Into The Garage
Posted 02 December 2023 - 09:45 AM
Purely out of interest,what did the factory do?I cannot see them having hundreds of cars a day running in the factory?Steve..
Well,,,, that's exactly what they did !! However not in car, just as completed power units, every single one of them. Here's one of the Hot Run Test Stations we had in our local BMC factory and they did have the same in the UK plants;-
Originally (and if memory serves), they'd run them for an hour, but as fuel became more expensive, it was shortened to half an hour and later again 20 minutes (there's that 'magic' 20 minutes again 
). Once the engines were fitted to the cars, it was up to the owner, however, in the owner's manual there too was instructions for the owner, though a bit vague;-
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