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Tandem Master Cylinders And Australian Rules


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#1 Spider

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Posted 07 May 2023 - 10:35 PM

This is just a heads up for anyone in Australia with a 78 or later Moke (or 77 on Mini !) who's replacing the Master Cylinder.

 

Many (all ?) of our local suppliers seem to only stock the GMC227 Master Cylinder, sometimes referred to as a Yellow Tag type. The originals were equivalent to a GMC167 or a Green Tag type. These two Cylinders while externally, having a similar appearance are quite different.

 

The way the original Cylinder was plumbed up, the lower port was for the front wheels and the upper for the rears.

 

These Tandem Master Cylinders while having a single Reservoir, they do have an internal partition, so that should a Hydraulic Failure occur on one circuit, the fluid doesn't drain from the healthy one out through the faulted one. Here's a GMC167 Type Reservoir cut away;-

 

O3Z3wEG.jpg

 

 

and you can see here on this GMC227 that the portion of the Reservoir closest to the Cylinder body is full and that further away is lower;-

 

6ouvUzc.jpg

 

 

The GMC227 has a stepped bore inside, the lower part having a bigger diameter than the upper. This is to give a slightly lower pedal pressure for the same braking. It also means that the upper port must be plumbed to the front brakes and that's where these Cylinders come unstuck. In Australia, the Brake System for these model cars had to comply with ADR35 or later, ADR35A. In that ADR it does state;-

 

J9Iyhhy.jpg

 

The Reservoir capacity for the upper port is approximately 20 ml from the full mark to where the upper connecting port between the Reservoir and the Cylinder.

 

I've only done here some back of the envelope numbers working from stock 8.4" Discs as these are what was factory fitted to the late 1275 Californians models and is also a very popular conversion for those that are fitted with Drum Brakes.

The Pistons in these are 2" (52 mm) in diameter and new pads have a friction material thickness of 9.8 mm. If we subtract 3 mm from the pad thickness (in line with ADR35), we have a total wear of 6.8 mm. The volume displacement for these pistons is 13.7 ml each for that wear in the Disc Pads, over 4 pistons is 54.8 ml.

 

While I haven't done the numbers for Drum Brakes here, they too will take more fluid as per ADR35 than the Reservoir will hold.

 

You can easily see here, even allowing for some errors in my numbers that the 20 ml the Reservoir holds for this circuit is a long way short of the 54 ml required.

 

While this may appear an obscure rule, it is stamped on to the compliance plate and I am aware first hand of an Insurance claim (not mine !) being knocked back because one of these Master Cylinders was fitted.

Retro fitting a Tandem Cylinder to a car that was originally Single Circuit, ADR35 or 35A will likely still apply in most states, even though that ADR will not have been in effect when the car was built as usually (depending on the State) this is deemed a modification that needs to comply with these ADRs.

Beware.



#2 Ethel

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Posted 08 May 2023 - 09:54 AM

Interesting,

 

To be hoped the rejected insurance claim resulted from a related brake failure.



#3 Homersimpson

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Posted 08 May 2023 - 12:50 PM

Im surprised that the fluid on the front/top reservoir is only 20ml from the pictures that doesn't seem right?

 

If this is correct then why don't lots of people report issues with loosing their brakes when the pads are worn down?  I've seen plenty of minis with pads on the metal and the brakes still worked fine (hydraulically)?



#4 Spider

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Posted 08 May 2023 - 05:58 PM

Interesting,

 

To be hoped the rejected insurance claim resulted from a related brake failure.

 

 

The sole reason for the claim being knocked back was this modification. The car had other modifications, but that was the only one mentioned " unauthorised modification of the Braking Master Cylinder ".

 

 

Im surprised that the fluid on the front/top reservoir is only 20ml from the pictures that doesn't seem right?

 

If this is correct then why don't lots of people report issues with loosing their brakes when the pads are worn down?  I've seen plenty of minis with pads on the metal and the brakes still worked fine (hydraulically)?

 

All I can suggest is the cylinder must have been topped up over time. It does take a long while to wear down a set of front brake pads. The Brake Fail lamp that were were discussing elsewhere would have lit up - if it worked ! - long before the the fluid ran dry, perhaps that prompted the owners of these cars to look at the fluid ?
 



#5 sonscar

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Posted 08 May 2023 - 07:18 PM

I was taught not to top up brake fluid as it had to have gone somewhere,either leaked or wear.Topping it up fixed neither problem.I was told that max to min fluid levels was the amount used when the linings were worn from new to the minimum.This could be total rubbish but seems to agree with the Australian views.Steve..

#6 Homersimpson

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Posted 08 May 2023 - 10:00 PM

 

Interesting,

 

To be hoped the rejected insurance claim resulted from a related brake failure.

 

 

The sole reason for the claim being knocked back was this modification. The car had other modifications, but that was the only one mentioned " unauthorised modification of the Braking Master Cylinder ".

 

 

Im surprised that the fluid on the front/top reservoir is only 20ml from the pictures that doesn't seem right?

 

If this is correct then why don't lots of people report issues with loosing their brakes when the pads are worn down?  I've seen plenty of minis with pads on the metal and the brakes still worked fine (hydraulically)?

 

All I can suggest is the cylinder must have been topped up over time. It does take a long while to wear down a set of front brake pads. The Brake Fail lamp that were were discussing elsewhere would have lit up - if it worked ! - long before the the fluid ran dry, perhaps that prompted the owners of these cars to look at the fluid ?
 

 

I used to work for a garage that specialisted in minis and I don't ever recall any customers who ran out of brake fluid when the pads were worn.  It sounds like something the manufactuers would have picked up on fairly quickly if it happened. How much fluid is there below the partition (specifically for the front brakes) and above the partition (for both sets of brakes?).



#7 Homersimpson

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Posted 08 May 2023 - 10:14 PM

 

 

Interesting,

 

To be hoped the rejected insurance claim resulted from a related brake failure.

 

 

The sole reason for the claim being knocked back was this modification. The car had other modifications, but that was the only one mentioned " unauthorised modification of the Braking Master Cylinder ".

 

 

Im surprised that the fluid on the front/top reservoir is only 20ml from the pictures that doesn't seem right?

 

If this is correct then why don't lots of people report issues with loosing their brakes when the pads are worn down?  I've seen plenty of minis with pads on the metal and the brakes still worked fine (hydraulically)?

 

All I can suggest is the cylinder must have been topped up over time. It does take a long while to wear down a set of front brake pads. The Brake Fail lamp that were were discussing elsewhere would have lit up - if it worked ! - long before the the fluid ran dry, perhaps that prompted the owners of these cars to look at the fluid ?
 

 

I used to work for a garage that specialisted in minis and I don't ever recall any customers who ran out of brake fluid when the pads were worn.  It sounds like something the manufactuers would have picked up on fairly quickly if it happened. How much fluid is there below the partition (specifically for the front brakes) and above the partition (for both sets of brakes?).

 

Just to add as well I don't remember many if any instance where when fitting new pads I had fluid being pushed back out of the master cylinder.  Certainly not enough for me to remember it as an issue.  It would be interesting to see the exact figures for the front and rear cylinder capacity and master cylinder capacity (front, rear and combined).  I do remember a fair few customers who had issues with their brakes caused by rear cylinder failure.

 

A very interesting topic Mokespider :-)



#8 Spider

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Posted 31 May 2023 - 07:21 AM

I Bleed this system through today and, measured what I could get from the front circuit.

 

Full Master Cylinder;-

 

yUfpXJr.jpg

 

 

Measuring cup - not my first choice but all I had to hand;-

 

EddkGlq.jpg

 

 

Master Bleed out (and the pedal ran out well before this point). You can clearly see here the partitioned reservoirs;-

 

znfCXx6.jpg

 

 

and we got this much fluid;-

 

U94odTF.jpg

 

Enjoy !






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