242 replies to this topic

[coopertaz]

the problem with hydrogen seems to be finding a "green" way to produce enough. Japans hyrogen is produced in new zealand by splitting down methane, a by product of oil extraction then shipped to japan, how enviromental is that. even using  Electrolysis you need to produce the electricity first. new biofuels made by company called corydon looks interesting but at £4.65 per litre!!!

 

[Spider]

the problem with hydrogen seems to be finding a "green" way to produce enough. Japans hyrogen is produced in new zealand by splitting down methane, a by product of oil extraction then shipped to japan, how enviromental is that. even using  Electrolysis you need to produce the electricity first. new biofuels made by company called corydon looks interesting but at £4.65 per litre!!!

 

Totally agree, that current technology isn't there with Hydrogen, though that they are getting from NZ is just one source. I'm no chemist, but my guess here is that what will possibly evolve in to a compound to use as a fuel rather than a single element, with that making it easier and cleaner to 'manufacture'. There's just too many countries around the world, not just Japan, who are investing heavily in to it for it not to succeed. Also, it appears that - currently - large scale Hydrogen 'production' seems to be via electrolysis and that I see will change. In NZ, as you've mentioned, they are splitting methane, so while also not from a 'clean' source, it is showing that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

 

In 1985 I did a trip through (at that time) one of the most remotest places on Earth, where they had a weather station. As part of their weather data gathering tools, hey had balloons that they'd fill with Hydrogen. They were 'making' that on site from chemicals - I can't recall the process - it didn't use any electricity at all, though it's highly likely those base chemicals did use electricity in their manufacture. The point though I am making here is again, yet another way of skinning that cat and that was from WWII era technology !

 

The cost will come down in time as production methods improve and volume increases.

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the Universe. Everything else is made from it.

[stuart bowes]

That is true but its also like being in the middle of the sea and saying water is plentiful but we can't drink it because we don't have distillation equipment

Admittedly that would be easier to rig up but you see what I mean though, just being abundant doesn't make it accessible,

I do get what you're saying about there being alternative methods though I would like to see hydrogen make a leap forwards

For now though it's still just the unnecessary middle man isn't it, why use electric to make it. Just put that electric directly into a battery and suffer less losses.

Meanwhile a) come up with new battery tech that doesn't require poisonous and dangerously combustible materials and b) work on the clean generation of electricity in the first place, more nuclear power, renewable, etc

Edited by stuart bowes, 29 January 2024 - 06:04 PM.

[Spider]

That is true but its also like being in the middle of the sea and saying water is plentiful but we can't drink it because we don't have distillation equipment

Admittedly that would be easier to rig up but you see what I mean though, just being abundant doesn't make it accessible,

I do get what you're saying about there being alternative methods though I would like to see hydrogen make a leap forwards

For now though it's still just the unnecessary middle man isn't it, why use electric to make it. Just put that electric directly into a battery and suffer less losses.

Meanwhile a) come up with new battery tech that doesn't require poisonous and dangerously combustible materials and b) work on the clean generation of electricity in the first place, more nuclear power, renewable, etc

 

Stuart, totally agree with all that and sorry if I implied that abundant meant readily accessible !  Only if !!!

In regards to vehicles, the fuel source / type comes down to Energy Density in regards to practicality. That is how much energy (watts / hours) you can cram in to a 'box' with the lightest possible weight, along with a 'refilling' time that's acceptable. While they have come a long way in the past 25 years, this is where batteries fall down big time and I can't see them 'being there' this side of 50 years. We also all know that batteries can be 'fast charged' but they come at the 'cost' of total battery life. This is why I think batteries are not the answer but a knee jerk.

 

It's also rather 'telling' where some of the drive for alternative fuel sources is driven from, when, here in Australia we have the biggest reserves of Uranium in the world, yet we have one small Nuclear Research facility and no Nuke Power Stations !!  Yet, we are 'happy' to dig up our reserves (and minerals) like monkeys and sell it all off shore. Maddness !!

[coopertaz]

not sure about nuclear from an enviromental point of view for electricity but can see biofuels being a future option rather then retro fitting all our classics, at least from a point of view for a classics forum. agree vast numbers have grasped the electric option then thought about infrastructure just assuming that if people buy enough electric cars there will be more companies willing to invest in charging points, who knows maybe they will! but maybe other companies will invest in older tchnology as you suggested spider from ww2 after all batteries are from 1000s of years ago initially.

[stuart bowes]

I see nuclear being the best option in combination with the wind / wave / sun etc renewables which are all well and good, but not consistent (relying on the weather) 

 

so a minimal amount of nuclear, used the right way, gives you such minimal downsides as to be basically negligible (at least in comparison to coal / oil / gas) https://www.national...ed-clean-energy

 

the amounts of fuel required are tiny in comparison, can be reused (https://www.orano.gr...g-and-recycling) and the minimal remains can be contained pretty safely

 

is it perfect, no, but it's a million times better than the total mess we have now. 

 

and it saves the rapidly diminishing reserves of oil that we could put to better use in our limited-mileage-use classic cars

 

I think nuclear gets this bad rap because of people with memories of mushroom clouds and deformed people with all their teeth falling out, but things have come on a long way since all that.  even Chernobyl that huge disaster only caused somewhere between 30 and 50 deaths depending who you believe.  Fukushima .. 1 death a long time afterwards from lung cancer but zero at the time directly attributable to nuclear issues (loads from the tsunami though obviously)

Edited by stuart bowes, 31 January 2024 - 11:16 AM.

[coopertaz]

agree and tidal seems a good way at least in forms of consistancy, you get it twice a day. with nuclear the stats are still 200 cubic metres of high level waste per. annum. but yes much better than before but still bad

[Designer]

Roll on Nuclear Fusion. Hopefully they will solve the problems of developing it soon.

[mab01uk]

Ev catches fire at a Mercedes Dealers....

https://www.instagra...3lsbnhiajlreg==

 

[mab01uk]

 

[Shooter63]

Roll on Nuclear Fusion. Hopefully they will solve the problems of developing it soon.

Unfortunately I don't think they will, you may or may not know but the UK based JET facility has just been shut down,with the last runs being its most successful in 40 years, it managed to produce power for 5 and a bit seconds. They will get it right but I doubt anytime soon which is a shame as it will be a world changer.Or is it the case that the world's powers, ie the oil and gas rich countries who own the world's debt are not overly keen on seeing their income evaporate over night.

Shooter

[sonscar]

Even if energy was free to produce it would still be expensive for consumers.I am old enough to remember" electricity will be so cheap that it will not be worth metering it"or words very close to this.Steve..

[Designer]

Yes I too remember words of that sort, but reference to Nuclear Fusion was, for the point that it is supposed to be totally clean with no harmful emissions of any kind. So they say!

[PoolGuy]

Sounds too good to be true.

[mab01uk]

Lithium battery warehouse goes up in flames.
"A warehouse in France storing lithium batteries caught fire on Saturday, amid growing fears over their safety.
The fire on Saturday afternoon occurred at a storehouse in the southern town of Viviez, in Aveyron, where 900 tons of lithium batteries were waiting to be recycled.
Authorities ordered residents to stay indoors and keep their windows closed as thick smoke billowed over the town. No injuries or deaths were reported and the cause of the fire has yet to be established.
Lithium batteries, found in electric scooters and vacuum cleaners, are known to spontaneously combust if they overheat or become damaged. Their dangers have raised concerns in countries where e-bikes have been promoted as a climate-friendly mode of transportation.
Jean-Louis Denoit, the mayor of Viviez, called Saturday’s fire “shocking” and told French news channel BFMTV: “Behind all this, there is indeed reason to ask questions about the function of electric vehicles and lithium batteries.”
It took 70 firefighters to put the fire under control, after which air quality tests were conducted and the lockdown order lifted.
France has moved to promote cycling since the pandemic, with e-bikes becoming hugely popular in cities like Paris. However irresponsible behaviour and a rising number of accidents has led to criticism around their use, and how to store their batteries safely.
In the UK, a proposal to build one of Europe’s largest battery storage facilities near the village of Granborough, in Buckinghamshire, was met with fierce opposition by locals who have expressed environmental and safety concerns.
The plan, by the energy company Statera, calls for a 500 MW battery energy storage system that would span 26 acres of land."

Video here:-
https://www.telegrap...-recycle-plant/

Edited by mab01uk, 18 February 2024 - 07:48 PM.