17 replies to this topic

[JonnyAlpha]

Hi,

 

I am building an RTS clutch to compliment my engine upgrade. 

I've read through the original RTS thread on building an RTS on Turbominis.co.uk and have been watching Stuart Gurr's video on YouTube. And have a few question later in in this thread.

 

To make an RTS you need two clutch springs, these, from what I have seen, cannot be purchased separately, so you need to dismantle another clutch and use two clutches to make one?

 

I am using a Clutch Kit that came as part of a MED ST1 Lightened Flywheel set. The clutch is a Borg & Beck.

 

Looking at Verto clutches, there appear to be different types / builds, the old clutch I am taking the spare spring from (not sure of the make? Pic below) has a flat / edged ring about 15mm wide under the rivets, on top of the fingers, the MED one did not?

 

 

It's still has the two rings, one on top that sits under this flat ended ring and one under the clutch spring fingers.

 

The MED (Borg & Beck) Clutch did not have this flat edge ring, it just has the smaller thin two rings, one under the top hat of the rivet, on top of the fingers and one below.

 

I have taken both clutch kits apart and the springs are slightly different, the outside edge of the old one has a larger circumference?

You can just see in the pic below, the newer MED spring is on top

 

 

The newer clutch fingers sit higher, I guess this is because the old one is, well, old.

 

 

 

Questions:

 

1. Will these two finger springs work together, or do I need to find another similar clutch (Borg & Beck?)

2. Not sure whether to put the old spring on to or underneath - would it matter?

3. Stuart mentions using Lotcite 571 in his video for the allen bolts to hold the springs on, Loctite 571 does not seem to be readily available, so is Loctite Blue 243 OK. That's what I have been using for the UNC bolts in the Gearbox.

4. Stuart suggests using a sprung friction plate, to aid smoother acceleration? The MED comes with a fixed plate, so, which sprung plates would anyone recommend?

 

 

Background

 

For my 1310 engine build I bought a MED ST1 Lightened Flywheel and Verto Clutch Kit. I then started to consider adding a Supercharger, this meant lots of research to identify what I need to change on the engine from the original build to ensure that it would be suitable for the extra Torque.

When researching clutch requirement, I found out that the MED ST1, was actually only rated for 70lb/ft torque, so whether I added the SC or not, it would still not be up to the projected 85lb/ft torque for my non SC build. So, I needed a better clutch, hence looking at RTS's.

I have searched around and know that the top racing boys etc, get RTS's from 'Pad Jo', however at £750 each, I needed to look elsewhere. I am not building a track car. This is a fast road car that may do the odd annual track day? But if I want to accelerate occasionally, I'd like to know that everything is solid.

 

[mini13]

Ive done a few of these, and  Ive run into problems using the type with the springs that have two angles as the springs dont sit together that well causing disengagement issues, so my recomendation is to use the type with the "flat" spring which is the one with the band manufactured by AP.

 

I would steer clear of sprung plates, Ive seen them start colapsing on turboed stuff, Ive run the 190mm rally plate

 

threadlocker wise, any good thread locker should be fine, Ive used loctite 270

 

spring wise you dont need to go overboard, I ran 2x 1275 springs on a 7 port turbo with no hint of slip, if you stick for example 2 turbo springs on then your legs probably going to start aching on the road,

[Tommyboy12]

Ive got a Pad Jo RTS. Very well put together. Its not cheap but he doesnt use cheap parts. That being said I put 170lb/ft through my clutch and it takes it.

 

You *can* make RTS's from Borg or Valeo clutches but its a slightly different build and they need to be matching brands. As above you really should use the AP type if you want to follow along with the more readily available instructions.

[JonnyAlpha]

Ive done a few of these, and Ive run into problems using the type with the springs that have two angles as the springs dont sit together that well causing disengagement issues, so my recomendation is to use the type with the "flat" spring which is the one with the band manufactured by AP.

I would steer clear of sprung plates, Ive seen them start colapsing on turboed stuff, Ive run the 190mm rally plate

threadlocker wise, any good thread locker should be fine, Ive used loctite 270

spring wise you dont need to go overboard, I ran 2x 1275 springs on a 7 port turbo with no hint of slip, if you stick for example 2 turbo springs on then your legs probably going to start aching on the road,

So the old flatter spring I have is from an AP clutch and these are the ones that used the flat ring plate? So I need to find another old AP pressure plate and get the spring from that and use the two AP flat springs in the new Borg and Beck Pressure plate that I have?
And stick with the non spring friction plate.

[JonnyAlpha]

Ive done a few of these, and Ive run into problems using the type with the springs that have two angles as the springs dont sit together that well causing disengagement issues, so my recomendation is to use the type with the "flat" spring which is the one with the band manufactured by AP.

I would steer clear of sprung plates, Ive seen them start colapsing on turboed stuff, Ive run the 190mm rally plate

threadlocker wise, any good thread locker should be fine, Ive used loctite 270

spring wise you dont need to go overboard, I ran 2x 1275 springs on a 7 port turbo with no hint of slip, if you stick for example 2 turbo springs on then your legs probably going to start aching on the road,

So the old flatter spring I have is from an AP clutch and these are the ones that used the flat ring plate? So I need to find another old AP pressure plate and get the spring from that and use the two AP flat springs in the new Borg and Beck Pressure plate that I have?
And stick with the non spring friction plate.

Sorry posted on haste. The AP springs don’t line up correctly with the Borg & Beck Pressure Plate.

[mini13]

yeah, the different manufacturers have different PCD's for  the sporing retention, so you essentially need two of the same type pressure plate to pull apart and  use.

[JonnyAlpha]

Ive got a Pad Jo RTS. Very well put together. Its not cheap but he doesnt use cheap parts. That being said I put 170lb/ft through my clutch and it takes it.

 

You *can* make RTS's from Borg or Valeo clutches but its a slightly different build and they need to be matching brands. As above you really should use the AP type if you want to follow along with the more readily available instructions.

 

Different instructions? Iv'e only seen an old thread on Turbominis.co.uk and this video by Stuart Gurr 

He's using a Borg and Beck. 

What's different between using a Borg / Valeo or AP?

[Tommyboy12]

They're different brands using different parts and processes when making their clutch springs. The specific brand doesn't really matter as there's instructions around for all of them but they both need to be the same. AP tends to be the most common build.

Edited by Tommyboy12, 28 July 2022 - 07:15 PM.

[JonnyAlpha]

They're different brands using different parts and processes when making their clutch springs. The specific brand doesn't really matter as there's instructions around for all of them but they both need to be the same. AP tends to be the most common build.

 

Typically now that I have started with the Borg & Beck, I am having trouble finding a set of Borg & Beck Clutch Spring Fingers :-(

[JonnyAlpha]

Picked up another matching B&B Clutch from OldSkool Minis.

 

 

Just need to get it under the pillar drill and drill out the rivets, to get at the spring. 

[JonnyAlpha]

In order to centre punch the centres I devised a transfer punch holder. It sits over the rivet and has a recess and a 6mm hole in the centre.

 

 

Then popped it on the pillar drill.

 

 

And that was that one apart ready to use the spring on my other one.

 

[JonnyAlpha]

So this week we were supposed to be away on our hols, but the first day in we tested positive for COVID, so had to come home. In between bouts of not feeling so good I finished off the RTS.

 

Before starting I stripped the clutch assembly apart apart and blew everything through with an airline, then with a blast of Brake Cleaner.

 

Step 1: Place the lower ring (cleaned up the welded area)

 

 

Step 2: Place on the first spring, ensuring the Flywheel Puller access holes are aligned.

 

 

Step 3: Place on the second spring.

 

 

Step 4: Then the top ring.

 

 

Step 5: Use three long 8mm bolts to set everything into position.

 

 

Step 6: Drop the lock washers into position (No pic) 

These sit under the rivet cap spacers to take up the distance of the second spring. My Springs were 2.3 and 2.5mm thick and the lock washers a little under at 2.13mm, but should be OK? 

 

Step 7: Place a dab of Loctite (I used 243 Blue) thread locker on the end of the M8 bolt and insert it into a rivet cap spacer and the carefully ensuring that it slips through the lock washer inserted earlier, start threading it into the M8 tapped hole below. 

 

Step 8: Repeat step 7 for the first 6 M8 bolts and do them all up hand tight.

 

Step 9: Remove each of the M8 long bolts one at a time and replace it with an M8 allen head bolt and rivet cap spacer, repeating step 7 for the three remaining bolts.

 

Step 9 - Torque each bolt 15ft /lb

 

And volia - one RTS clutch.

 

 

Annoyingly I don't have anything setup to measure the torque of this clutch setup and would have also wanted to have confirmed the torque rating of the assembly before adding the extra spring. 

 

I have now sent it off with the lightened flywheel to get balanced.

Edited by JonnyAlpha, 29 September 2022 - 06:44 PM.

[mini_matt_106]

Looks like solid work there! I'm sure it should hold plenty of torque.

[@stevedamini]

Nice do you recommend anywhere for balancing clutch and flywheel?

[JonnyAlpha]

Looks like solid work there! I'm sure it should hold plenty of torque.

 

Thanks