31 replies to this topic

[MatthewsDad]

What a pity. All we're asking for are components made to the same standard as half a century ago.

[Steam]

Thanks for posting the update Chris, very timely as I am in need of a set and was considering these.
I now wont have to be dissapointed.
Excellent review.

[gaspen]

 

I believe you can get these now from Guess-works (UK) without having to get them sent from Japan. (Advertised as the same thing)

 

http://www.guess-wor...play.htm?id=611

 

These are a different joint to those I reviewed here.

 

Those offered by Guess Works are the Sealed Maintenance Free Joints (I'll be doing a review on these).

 

Those reviewed here are of the same design as the Original Joints and in my view, of similar quality.

 

 

I am confused here. The text on GW's link says : These balljoints are imported from Japan...

 

Are there two manufacturers in Japan ? Or I missed something ?

 

[timmy850]

I believe you can get these now from Guess-works (UK) without having to get them sent from Japan. (Advertised as the same thing)

http://www.guess-wor...play.htm?id=611

These are a different joint to those I reviewed here.

Those offered by Guess Works are the Sealed Maintenance Free Joints (I'll be doing a review on these).

Those reviewed here are of the same design as the Original Joints and in my view, of similar quality.

I am confused here. The text on GW's link says : These balljoints are imported from Japan...

Are there two manufacturers in Japan ? Or I missed something ?

With the “sealed maintenance free no shim” ball joints:
Guessworks ones are a different manufacturer to the Classic Mini Japan items

Classic mini Japan = Minispares = Mini Delta

[gaspen]

 

 

 

I am confused here. The text on GW's link says : These balljoints are imported from Japan...

Are there two manufacturers in Japan ? Or I missed something ?

With the “sealed maintenance free no shim” ball joints:
Guessworks ones are a different manufacturer to the Classic Mini Japan items

Classic mini Japan = Minispares = Mini Delta

 

 

I see, that's make sense, thanks

 

I've installed ball joints to my 1st Mini from ClassicMiniJapan but it drive it very little.

 

GW's NSR ball joints are better ?  

 

I have a standard set which I bought from MiniSpares, I plan to install it to my 2nd Mini

 

Should I scrap them instead ?

[Spider]

This thread is actually about standard type ball joints, not the maintenance free types.

 

I've installed ball joints to my 1st Mini from ClassicMiniJapan but it drive it very little.

 

GW's NSR ball joints are better ?  

 

I have a standard set which I bought from MiniSpares, I plan to install it to my 2nd Mini

 

Should I scrap them instead ?

 

 

All the maintenance free joints currently available do not have enough swivel angle and are potentially dangerous. I don't recommend any of them.

If you have Ball Joints from Mini Spares, fit those, they are about as good as any other stock replacement ball joint currently available and while they may wear, they won't break.
 

[Spider]

I had the opportunity this afternoon to do some hardness testing of some of the Pins. We tested on the smaller ball on the pins, as with the gear we had, that was the easiest to do, though we did double check on some on the bigger ball.

 

BMC Joint from the 70's     47 Rc on big and small ball
Unipart Joint*                      45 Rc   * These were their 'new' joints after the original stock had sold out. They have a turned finish, not ground like the originals.
After-market                       47 Rc on the small ball

OEM Jap Joints                  23 Rc on the big and small balls. We also checked on that very worn joint and found that too was only 23 Rc, indicating that they were likely 1045 mild steel with no heat treatment.

 

I'll also point out here that while some might appear 'good' these figures alone are not really enough to go off, though, clearly the current OEM Japanese joints are utter rubbish. When time permits, I'll grind a few of these joints to do further tests to get a depth of hardness as some only have a very thin case on them.

[Designer]

Thank you Spider for the excellent research that you do on all of our behalf.

Large applause and three loud cheers.

 

Paddy

[Fred&Rex]

Hi everyone
Maintenance free ball joints and lowered minis are there any complications, keep hearing about swivel angles etc etc.
Thanks again
Daz

[Spider]

Hi everyone
Maintenance free ball joints and lowered minis are there any complications, keep hearing about swivel angles etc etc.
Thanks again
Daz

 

Yes, there are issues, lowered, raised or standard height.

 

The Maintenance Free ones only have a swivel angle of about 40⁰ while I've not actually measure it yet, but it's clear to see they fall well short.

 

The original Mini Ball Joints have a 55⁰ swivel angle and they need every degree of that and more if dialing in any amount of negative camber.

 

Put another way, they are not fit for purpose.

[Fred&Rex]

Thanks Spider for the info l, I have a set fitted and from hearing about this thought I would ask. Although I’ve not driven much yet I’m wondering what potentially could go wrong
The swivel snaps? Geometry issues? Steering problems?
If going back to original shimming which ones are we choosing as most are junk in reality.
NOS or any particular brands
Thanks again

[Spider]

Thanks Spider for the info l, I have a set fitted and from hearing about this thought I would ask. Although I’ve not driven much yet I’m wondering what potentially could go wrong
The swivel snaps? Geometry issues? Steering problems?
If going back to original shimming which ones are we choosing as most are junk in reality.
NOS or any particular brands
Thanks again

 

Particularly if the suspension is raised or lower it will increase the probability of a swivel pin and / or the cup of the joint breaking, though, this will still likely happen at standard height too, but might take longer. As the suspension moves to the point of where the pin contacts the cup, it will have odd effects to suspension travel and could well cause the steering to get suddenly stiff or even lock.

 

I have tested on the bench just how much angle these joints need an while they do have a high angle of movement (at 55⁰) then definitely need every single degree of that. Even with standard joints, if any additional negative camber is dialed in, on full droop, the lower pin will bind on the cup, especially if any steering angle is also dialed in. By 'any additional negative camber' I mean that the stock camber is +2 to 3⁰ , even moving this to +1 is well enough to cause issues.

 

The factory never offered adjustable arms, however, through Special Tuning they did off longer lower arms (actually, these were the same forging, just machined differently), and they gave an installation instruction that included adding a 1/8" (3 mm) packer under the rebound stop pad of the upper arms to reduce the droop and reduce the risk of this issue.

 

As for what I'd suggest to use, if you can find genuine NOS joints, they were extremely high quality and very good, my next choice though nowhere near as good but about the best you'll get off the shelf would be those from Mini Spares.

 

[Fred&Rex]

Thanks Spider, wow very detailed explanation which I very much appreciate, will you be testing the swivel angle of the maintenance free ball joints out of interest.
From memory QH ball joint kits were good and I fitted them in the 90s without any problems.

Regards
Daz

[Steam]

Sometimes the OCD eff3ct of never throwing anything out actually pays off. I have a drawer full of preloved ball joints which are probobly still usable and sounds like better quality than new.
Now where do I find new, quality dust covers.

[GraemeC]

Catmint did develop some new dust covers I think, but can't get to their website at the moment

 

MiniSpares also do them, but not sure how long they last.