59 replies to this topic

[Spider]

The way he has it should work Spider - he is using the wing mounted solenoid as originally wired and then using the red jumper to power the piggyback solenoid simultaneously as the starter gets power

 

 

Thanks for the clarification here Graeme and OK, gotya on that, however (and I hope I'm not confusing matters here);-

 

 

 

Shouldn't it be connected to the Terminal I've placed the Blue Arrow on ?

[cal844]

The way he has it should work Spider - he is using the wing mounted solenoid as originally wired and then using the red jumper to power the piggyback solenoid simultaneously as the starter gets power

Thanks for the clarification here Graeme and OK, gotya on that, however (and I hope I'm not confusing matters here);-




Shouldn't it be connected to the Terminal I've placed the Blue Arrow on ?

The arrowed terminal is for a yellow/white wire when fitted to cars with Ballast Resistor wiring loom.

The starter should work as currently wired in the images.

Regards

Cal

[Matt Zane]

Might be a daft suggestion but….. I presume you can’t turn the flywheel relatively easily with a screwdriver or short pry bar on the ring gear (with the starter removed)

When I had the starter out, I did check the flywheel, it does turn, but without any real resistance, I was able to do it with my fingers. I tried it with the car in gear too, and was able to rock the car forward.

[Matt Zane]

The way he has it should work Spider - he is using the wing mounted solenoid as originally wired and then using the red jumper to power the piggyback solenoid simultaneously as the starter gets power

I have ordered a new starter cable, and I'm going reconfigure the wiring as has been previously suggested.

[sonscar]

If you can turn the flywheel with your fingers it cannot be connected to the engine,surely?Steve..

[Matt Zane]

If you can turn the flywheel with your fingers it cannot be connected to the engine,surely?Steve..

I had found that odd too, hence why i put it in gear. I expected to not be able to turn the flywheel over at all at that point, but I was surprised that the car moved forward slightly when the flywheel was moved.

[Dusky]

You can see the starter also only contacts on 2/3ths of the flywheel teeth.

[Earwax]

Hi Matt

 

Lots of good advice coming in, but it seems you are not closer to diagnosing the issue.  So , one step at a time so you can rule IN or OUT different fixes. Methodical will get the job done. Good luck.

 

Your comment above about flywheel spinning with little resistance shoots alarms bells for me . I may have feeble thumb and finger muscles but whether spark plugs are in or not i would expect spinning the flywheel to take some energy  ( use of screwdriver lever as per Graeme).  So I think it would be good to confirm 

A) the flywheel and crank are firmly connected 

B)the flywheel doesn't have any forward and back movement up and down the crank taper and it is properly bedded on the crank.

C) the crank is able to turn with the weight of rods pistons etc - so some resistance expected

 

If problems are as above  then i think you will need to yank the motor to see what is going on.

 

( one thing to look for if you have to go this route - is the flywheel fully seating on the crank taper or is it being held off by slight swarf build up etc)

 

 

 

If the flywheel crank seems to be fine then a solution is likely NOT to involve pulling the motor - so small win there. As per a couple of suggestions from people above , I would look at:

 

Throw  and then 

 

Electrics    ( you may choose electrics then throw)

 

I am not sure if you have measured the throw and the throw required ( i don't know if it is throw or pull on a verto)  but the distance as Per Ethyl is important .  On the Swarf photo it looks like one of the starters has been engaging about 2/3 of the teeth width ( as per Dusky)  - maybe the old one ( some shinier wear marks to my eyes). BUT the noise on the video is very much starter  not engaging the flywheel and I agree it seems as if the clicking noise is the solenoid returning once power is stopped - so either not throwing out the required distance   or maybe not sliding into the ring gear and so pushing against the ring gear  or maybe misaligned when energised  ( i had a new pre verto type starter that had plastic like guides for when the bendix moved - this was cracked and flexed so the shaft when projected would be pushed to the side slightly

 

It would seem unusual for 2 different starter motors to behave like this  - but if you have unknowingly changed the required throw out distance - then they both will struggle to engage the flywheel   -the solution for this ( as I see it) is measure accurately the throw out distance and modify the starter motor to suit that length

 

 

This comment is for Graeme C or other clever wiring folks ( so don't rush in Matt)

 

 

Hi Graeme , is there any worth in bypassing the one or  two solenoids in a row to see if something is getting diluted in translation? - so undo the bypass (or use the wing solenoid)  AND add/ensure a good earth

 

Good hunting and speedy solution

[sonscar]

I would not waste effort on anything until it was certain that the flywheel IS connected to the engine.If it is loose you will be causing more damage.You will not be able to turn a fitted flywheel without tools.Steve..

[GraemeC]

My next move would also be to confirm the flywheel is on the crank properly - whip the wok off and see what is going on.

You potentially wouldn't be able to move the flywheel axially by hand through the starter hole as any pushing/pulling here would make it cockle over and grab the taper.  You'll only really tell by getting to the centre of it.

 

If it is securely attached then there is another couple of crank related possibilities, but we'll not go there just yet. 

[Matt Zane]

Hi Matt

Lots of good advice coming in, but it seems you are not closer to diagnosing the issue. So , one step at a time so you can rule IN or OUT different fixes. Methodical will get the job done. Good luck.

Your comment above about flywheel spinning with little resistance shoots alarms bells for me . I may have feeble thumb and finger muscles but whether spark plugs are in or not i would expect spinning the flywheel to take some energy ( use of screwdriver lever as per Graeme). So I think it would be good to confirm
A) the flywheel and crank are firmly connected
B)the flywheel doesn't have any forward and back movement up and down the crank taper and it is properly bedded on the crank.
C) the crank is able to turn with the weight of rods pistons etc - so some resistance expected

If problems are as above then i think you will need to yank the motor to see what is going on.

( one thing to look for if you have to go this route - is the flywheel fully seating on the crank taper or is it being held off by slight swarf build up etc)



If the flywheel crank seems to be fine then a solution is likely NOT to involve pulling the motor - so small win there. As per a couple of suggestions from people above , I would look at:

Throw and then

Electrics ( you may choose electrics then throw)

I am not sure if you have measured the throw and the throw required ( i don't know if it is throw or pull on a verto) but the distance as Per Ethyl is important . On the Swarf photo it looks like one of the starters has been engaging about 2/3 of the teeth width ( as per Dusky) - maybe the old one ( some shinier wear marks to my eyes). BUT the noise on the video is very much starter not engaging the flywheel and I agree it seems as if the clicking noise is the solenoid returning once power is stopped - so either not throwing out the required distance or maybe not sliding into the ring gear and so pushing against the ring gear or maybe misaligned when energised ( i had a new pre verto type starter that had plastic like guides for when the bendix moved - this was cracked and flexed so the shaft when projected would be pushed to the side slightly

It would seem unusual for 2 different starter motors to behave like this - but if you have unknowingly changed the required throw out distance - then they both will struggle to engage the flywheel -the solution for this ( as I see it) is measure accurately the throw out distance and modify the starter motor to suit that length


This comment is for Graeme C or other clever wiring folks ( so don't rush in Matt)


Hi Graeme , is there any worth in bypassing the one or two solenoids in a row to see if something is getting diluted in translation? - so undo the bypass (or use the wing solenoid) AND add/ensure a good earth

Good hunting and speedy solution

Hi Earwax,

Thanks for the detailed response, I'm going head down to the garage this weekend and try and get the wok off so I can get a better look at the flywheel.

I'm going to check the throw of the starter, I've see videos of guys checking proper engagement of differentials in classic American muscle cars, and had thought about using the same technique.

They put coloured paste on the crown gear, to check engagement with the pinion gear, and had thought that might be a good idea.

But having googled this 'paste' I can't seem to find what I'm after, and I can't find the video that I saw it on.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

[GraemeC]

I think you could check the engagement by having the starter bolted in place, with the wok removed, and then only providing power to the solenoid and not the starter itself.  Should show how far the pinion is thrown out.

[Dusky]

Look at the whitness marks on the flywheel. You already see 2/3ths clean metal and 1/3th rusty metal on the flywheel teeth

[Earwax]

Hi Matt 

 

You might try engineers blue or marking blue - not sure if it thick enough or alternatively maybe use some blu tac  / yellow tac   -  good for checking piston to valve clearances

[Matt Zane]

Hi Matt

You might try engineers blue or marking blue - not sure if it thick enough or alternatively maybe use some blu tac / yellow tac - good for checking piston to valve clearances

Good suggestion! I'll give that a try.