59 replies to this topic

[Matt Zane]

Pictures of what you've done would help. I think what you describe would work, but it isn't how I would do it.

At wing mounted solenoid, from the same terminal that has the battery connection take a cable to the main terminal on the pre-engaged starter. This needs to be a cable of the same size as the battery cable and will provide a permanent battery connection to the starter as it would have in its original application.
Then take a cable from the other large terminal on the wing mounted solenoid to the large spade terminal on the pre-engaged starter solenoid. This needs to be at least a 2mm² cable and will then provide a voltage to the solenoid when you turn the key.

Does the engine turn over on the key OK if you remove the plugs?
Personally I think this is a lack of battery power or poor earth.

Hi Graeme,

I'll shoot down to the garage tomorrow and get a couple of pictures.

Thanks,

Matt

[Matt Zane]

In answer to your question Graeme, immediately prior to the starter motor starting spinning i was checking the compression, so the lt connection on the ignition coil was disconnected, and had a plug removed and the compression gauge connected, the engine spun over with absolutely no problems at all, and I was able to check the compression on all 4 cylinders, replacing the plugs as I went.

Edited by Matt Zane, 21 June 2021 - 05:30 PM.

[GraemeC]

Worth checking if this is still the case (ie after you started having problems)

[Spider]

 

Pre-engaged should only spin when the pinion has been pushed out fully to engage the ring gear.

 

So, it should be pretty obvious to diagnose. Unbolt the starter & try it off the car to see how far the solenoid moves the pinion - compare that with ring gear in relation to the starter mounting face. Unless you find you can move the flywheel in & out anyway.

Hang on here you have just got my brain working. The Verto ring gear is on the moving part ain’t it. It does sound like the flywheel is on its way out of the car.

 

 

I've not had a Verto Assembly to look at, however yesterday when this thread popped up, I looked at some of the Verto Assembly Diagrams as I was wondering if this is what occurred with them since the Ring Gear is effectively on the Clutch Backing Plate, but I couldn't be certain if in fact that moved or was 'fixed' via the Hub assembly ?

[Matt Zane]

Worth checking if this is still the case (ie after you started having problems)

When i pop down to take the pictures I'll pull the plugs and try it on the key again.

[Ethel]

 Confess I hadn't given that bit any thought - but it doesn't, or shouldn't, move. The moving part has the drive straps, to allow the axial movement that  disengages the friction plate. I suppose the Verto can be thought of as a normal, end on gearbox, pressure plate sandwiched between 2 halves of the flywheel

[nicklouse]

 Confess I hadn't given that bit any thought - but it doesn't, or shouldn't, move. The moving part has the drive straps, to allow the axial movement that  disengages the friction plate. I suppose the Verto can be thought of as a normal, end on gearbox, pressure plate sandwiched between 2 halves of the flywheel

 

just me having a moment. All the movement is internal and different.

[Matt Zane]

Thanks again all for the responses, I'm going to shoot down to the garage tonight, the measurements will have to be done at the weekend when I have a helper.

I'm goings to bring back my battery this evening to make sure it has a good charge.

[Matt Zane]

So I popped down to the garage this evening after work, and whipped out the plugs, this doesn't seem to have made any difference. The fan nudges slightly, but the starter motor just spins.

Please see attached picture of how I've wired it. Please excuse the dodgy insulation tape, I didn't have any fresh, and I didn't want any arcing close to the distributor.

I pulled the starter and inspected gear that engages to the ring gear on both units, neither seemed to show any sign of wear.

I did notice a little fine schwarf (?) Inside the starter motor appeture (picture attached)

When the starter motor spins, when you let off the key, there is a barely audible metallic noise that sounds like the bendix (not sure if that is what it's called on a pre-engaged starter motor) retracting.


I tried something, a little inadvisable, but I thought I'd share...

I stuck the car in gear and bumped the starter and the car did rock forward, I did the same in reverse.

Following that, the engine did seem to turn over when the starter was engaged, but not for very long.

I did do a 'heath robinson' and balanced my camera facing the flywheel while the starter was out, and videoed myself pumping the clutch, but I couldn't see any movement from the flywheel. I will probably verify at the weekend with a straight edge.

I hope this helps you further.

Cheers,

Matt

Pictured won't upload, I'll see what I can do...

Edited by Matt Zane, 22 June 2021 - 05:35 PM.

[Matt Zane]

I've gone down again this evening, and taken a video of the noises that the starter motor is making.

I had hoped that a good charge on the battery might see me right, but that hasn't made any difference.

The below video clip shows me alternatively trying to turn the engine over without and with the clutch engaged.

After the motor stops spinning, in all instances you can hear a click, which I assume is the starter bendix (or whatever its called - not sure of the anatomy of a pre-engaged starter) disengaging.

https://youtu.be/5xukmAQCoxQ

The attached picture shows the wiring of the motor.

As previously mentioned the fat cable goes from the switched post on the solenoid on the wing to the positive post on the starter. The little jumper cable goes from the positive post on the starter, to the large spade connector.

Again, please excuse the insulation tape, I've taken the starter motor out a couple of times, and I still want to prevent the arcing.

Attached Files

•  20210623_185315.jpg   50.91K   2 downloads

[Matt Zane]

Sorry, I also forgot to add the picture of the fine Schwarf.

Please see below.

Attached Files

•  20210622_172606~2.jpg   32.54K   3 downloads

[GraemeC]

Might be a daft suggestion but….. I presume you can’t turn the flywheel relatively easily with a screwdriver or short pry bar on the ring gear (with the starter removed)

[Spider]

I can't quite make out where that big Red is connecting to, it looks like you've got that connected back on to a terminal on the Solenoid ?

 

I think that's your problem there - loose the big Red Wire.

 

Heavy Battery Cable to the (free) terminal of the Solenoid. White / Red wire to the spade terminal on the Solenoid and that's the only connections you need make.

 

The other big terminal of the Solenoid will have a braided looking wire connected to it that disappears inside the Starter Motor.

[GraemeC]

The way he has it should work Spider - he is using the wing mounted solenoid as originally wired and then using the red jumper to power the piggyback solenoid simultaneously as the starter gets power

[nicklouse]

Sorry, I also forgot to add the picture of the fine Schwarf.

Please see below.

Not seeing any chamfers on those teeth which I would expect to see.