59 replies to this topic

[Matt Zane]

Hello Guys,

I've had a odd issue crop up this morning.

When I took the car out for its shakedown run, I had an issue where the starter just would just spin. It only happened the once, and I had assumed it was a loose bolt on the starter.

I got down to the garage this morning to check the compression on the engine, and the car turned over without issue.

Then when I buttoned everything up so I could check the ignition timing, the starter began to just spin.

I put the car in gear and rocked it back and forth but it had no effect. I swapped the starter for a spare, and the same results happened.

To cut a long story short, I tried cranking the engine with the clutch depressed, something I do not usually do, as I know it's not good for the crank thrustwashers, and the engine cranked over and started.

This feels like a clutch issue, can someone give me an idea what I should look at?

Car is a 74 saloon with a 1275cc engine from an 89 Metro with a Verto Clutch.

I appreciate any advice going!

Thanks,

Matt

[nicklouse]

And the starter is a? 

[Matt Zane]

Pre engaged

[nicklouse]

Two things come to mind.

 

The starter is not moving out to engage with the flywheel. Or the flywheel has moved and foot on clutch pressed it back onto the crank.

[Matt Zane]

Two things come to mind.

The starter is not moving out to engage with the flywheel. Or the flywheel has moved and foot on clutch pressed it back onto the crank.

Thanks Nicklouse,

I've tried two different starters, one was brand new, I only picked it up last weekend, the second came with the engine, so I guess it's possibly the flywheel.

How would the flywheel move, and what would be the solution in this situation?

[nicklouse]

 

Two things come to mind.

The starter is not moving out to engage with the flywheel. Or the flywheel has moved and foot on clutch pressed it back onto the crank.

Thanks Nicklouse,

I've tried two different starters, one was brand new, I only picked it up last weekend, the second came with the engine, so I guess it's possibly the flywheel.

How would the flywheel move, and what would be the solution in this situation?

 

It would only move if the bolt has come loose. But you could also hear the flywheel being loose. Pull the starter and check the fly wheel is not loose. If it does not seem to be take a measurement through the starter aperture then press the clutch pedal and then take the same measurement. If it is exactly the same then you are good. If it reduces then you need to investigate.

if the same then you will need to have further measurements and checks.. like looking at the teeth on the flywheel. 

[Matt Zane]

Two things come to mind.

The starter is not moving out to engage with the flywheel. Or the flywheel has moved and foot on clutch pressed it back onto the crank.

Thanks Nicklouse,

I've tried two different starters, one was brand new, I only picked it up last weekend, the second came with the engine, so I guess it's possibly the flywheel.

How would the flywheel move, and what would be the solution in this situation?

It would only move if the bolt has come loose. But you could also hear the flywheel being loose. Pull the starter and check the fly wheel is not loose. If it does not seem to be take a measurement through the starter aperture then press the clutch pedal and then take the same measurement. If it is exactly the same then you are good. If it reduces then you need to investigate.
if the same then you will need to have further measurements and checks.. like looking at the teeth on the flywheel.

Thank you, I will look into this!

[whistler]

Had similar with an spi engine. Someone hadn't torqued up the flywheel bolt properly and it came loose. Would only start with clutch depressed due to sensor being out of line without clutch depression.

[Matt Zane]

Had similar with an spi engine. Someone hadn't torqued up the flywheel bolt properly and it came loose. Would only start with clutch depressed due to sensor being out of line without clutch depression.

Thanks Whistler

[Earwax]

Hi Matt

 

As Nick suggested, measure the depth from where the face of the transfer case meets the starter motor to the near edge of the flywheel for your throw out.  You did not specify what parts were used in the build. I have had experience when using a MED flywheel ( listed as pre engaged type/position) and a brand new Forged crank where  i had to alter the starter.  ( Possibly new crank so very little creep of the flywheel down the crank and possibly slight differences in position of flywheel

 

Measurements are just a guess but 27 mm rings a bell  _ I don;t know what a standard pre engaged one is supposed to be- sorry

[Ethel]

Pre-engaged should only spin when the pinion has been pushed out fully to engage the ring gear.

 

So, it should be pretty obvious to diagnose. Unbolt the starter & try it off the car to see how far the solenoid moves the pinion - compare that with ring gear in relation to the starter mounting face. Unless you find you can move the flywheel in & out anyway.

[andyapanel]

I had a flywheel knocked out of position by a high torque starter motor, which thumped it while it was moving to engage.

However, I have suffered many more electrical problems than mechanical ones (Cars I mean, not me), so I would look at the electrical feeds and the starter motor.

I agree with Ethel and would recheck the starter motors and see if the gear is moving properly. 

Good luck

[nicklouse]

Pre-engaged should only spin when the pinion has been pushed out fully to engage the ring gear.

 

So, it should be pretty obvious to diagnose. Unbolt the starter & try it off the car to see how far the solenoid moves the pinion - compare that with ring gear in relation to the starter mounting face. Unless you find you can move the flywheel in & out anyway.

Hang on here you have just got my brain working. The Verto ring gear is on the moving part ain’t it. It does sound like the flywheel is on its way out of the car.

[Matt Zane]

Pre-engaged should only spin when the pinion has been pushed out fully to engage the ring gear.

So, it should be pretty obvious to diagnose. Unbolt the starter & try it off the car to see how far the solenoid moves the pinion - compare that with ring gear in relation to the starter mounting face. Unless you find you can move the flywheel in & out anyway.

Hang on here you have just got my brain working. The Verto ring gear is on the moving part ain’t it. It does sound like the flywheel is on its way out of the car.

Argggh! Sounds drastic! I'll do the measurements, but I guess the engine will need to come out again in any event.

I just wanted to check from a starter wiring point of view to see if this will have made a difference. I've taken the wire from my original starter solenoid on the inner wing to the live terminal on the pre-engaged starter. Following the guidance from DKLawson, I've made a jumper cable between the live terminal and the large spade terminal on the starter.

I understood that this enabled the stock 1974 solenoid on the wing to energise the solenoid built into the pre-engaged starter.


Could this be having an effect?

Cheers,

Matt

[GraemeC]

Pictures of what you've done would help.  I think what you describe would work, but it isn't how I would do it.

 

At wing mounted solenoid, from the same terminal that has the battery connection take a cable to the main terminal on the pre-engaged starter. This needs to be a cable of the same size as the battery cable and will provide a permanent battery connection to the starter as it would have in its original application.

Then take a cable from the other large terminal on the wing mounted solenoid to the large spade terminal on the pre-engaged starter solenoid. This needs to be at least a 2mm² cable and will then provide a voltage to the solenoid when you turn the key.

 

Does the engine turn over on the key OK if you remove the plugs?
Personally I think this is a lack of battery power or poor earth.

Edited by GraemeC, 21 June 2021 - 05:12 PM.