22 replies to this topic

[JonnyAlpha]

Hi;

 

In the middle of a 1275 - 1310 build using a Metro A+ 1275. Planning on fitting an IWIS Simplex Chain from Calver ST and to save money, I was going to re-use my existing Timing Gears. I had not touched them since I pulled the engine apart so took a look at them today.

 

As I am in no way an expert, I have attached some photos for the experts on here to take a look and give me thier opinion as to whether or not they are worn and should be replaced.

 

If they are declared not re-useable I can ether buy the IWIS chain above at £35 and the following new gears:

 

Camshaft Timing Gear Simplex £14.36

Crankshaft Timing Gear £10.25

 

So with the Calver IWIS that's £59.61 or use a Bull Motif Simplex Kit for £32.34 (which comes with new tensioner) and the CalverST IWIS for about £68, or upgrade to a Duplex:

 

Calver ST Ultra Light Duplex at £129.50

 

Or I have just spotted this Steel / Alloy Duplex Vernier version sold by Med Engineering for £135

 

The engine will be 1310, AC Dodd RS Cam, Stage 2 Head (Standard Rockers), with Stage One Kit, HIF44 Carb - around 80 lb/ft Torque

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by JonnyAlpha, 21 January 2020 - 06:20 PM.

[unburntfuelinthemorning]

Those gears look past their best.  On my build I went for the tried and tested duplex setup with steel gears and a decent chain.  Didn't bother with a tensioner.

[Spider]

New Chain = New Gears.  I never even bother looking at the condition of what comes off.

As Unburnt suggested, a Duplex set up for a Road Car.

[luismx123]

http://www.minispare...VO.aspx|Back to

Minispares do a vernier steel duplex set which is what I'll be getting for me current build. Save you about 35 pound from the MED version

[Cooperman]

Don't waste money with a vernier set. They are expensive and only get set accurately one time, unless the cam is subsequently changed. The most cost-effective way is to measure the necessary sprocket setting and use an offset woodruff key.

Just buy a top quality set of timing sprockets and a good duplex chain and it will be fine.

You don't need a tensioner, although one can be fitted if you so wish. I have twice seen broken tensioner pads on a duplex chain, possibly because the pad only rests on the centre of the chain with a duplex, but sits onto both sides with a simplex chain. Others have never seen any problems with a tensioner on a duplex chain, so maybe I have been unlucky (or those engines used too many revs!).

[JonnyAlpha]

OK so new gears with the new chain - but why Duplex, I have been advised by some knowledgeable peeps to go for an Simplex chain, but make sure it's an IWIS.

Edited by JonnyAlpha, 21 January 2020 - 06:10 PM.

[JonnyAlpha]

Those gears look past their best.  On my build I went for the tried and tested duplex setup with steel gears and a decent chain.  Didn't bother with a tensioner.

 

Looking at the description for the part you linked it says:

 

This budget standard cast duplex gear and chain set is the next step up, for road use only.

 

So would this be OK for a Fast Road Engine?

[unburntfuelinthemorning]

 

Those gears look past their best.  On my build I went for the tried and tested duplex setup with steel gears and a decent chain.  Didn't bother with a tensioner.

 

Looking at the description for the part you linked it says:

 

This budget standard cast duplex gear and chain set is the next step up, for road use only.

 

So would this be OK for a Fast Road Engine?

 

 

This is the budget standard cast duplex gear and chain set.

 

The Minispares descriptions aren't the clearest and need careful reading.  The gears in this one are cast iron whereas the gears in the one I listed previously are steel.

Edited by unburntfuelinthemorning, 21 January 2020 - 06:57 PM.

[JonnyAlpha]

 

 

Those gears look past their best.  On my build I went for the tried and tested duplex setup with steel gears and a decent chain.  Didn't bother with a tensioner.

 

Looking at the description for the part you linked it says:

 

This budget standard cast duplex gear and chain set is the next step up, for road use only.

 

So would this be OK for a Fast Road Engine?

 

 

This is the budget standard cast duplex gear and chain set.

 

The Minispares descriptions aren't the clearest and need careful reading.  The gears in this one are cast iron whereas the gears in the one I listed previously are steel.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification - yes the description they use can be a tad confusing  

 

So a steel set of gears and a Duplex chain then for just under £80

[luismx123]

Don't waste money with a vernier set. They are expensive and only get set accurately one time, unless the cam is subsequently changed. The most cost-effective way is to measure the necessary sprocket setting and use an offset woodruff key.

Just buy a top quality set of timing sprockets and a good duplex chain and it will be fine.

You don't need a tensioner, although one can be fitted if you so wish. I have twice seen broken tensioner pads on a duplex chain, possibly because the pad only rests on the centre of the chain with a duplex, but sits onto both sides with a simplex chain. Others have never seen any problems with a tensioner on a duplex chain, so maybe I have been unlucky (or those engines used too many revs!).

I totally understand that. The issue is however, the vernier kit costs 100, the steel duplex ones cost 75-80 and a woodruf key costs another 10. If youre experienced and know how to set the timing perfectly and you have a bunch of keys around then thats definitely the way to go. If I have to do it, that means checking what key I need, ordering it after Ive already ordered the duplex set and paying extra shipping again, then finding out I did something wrong and then ordering 2 extra keys once again...price above what a Vernier set wouldve costed, and then on the next build im stuck with some random woodruf keys and needing to invest in a couple more -.-
Thats my reasoning

Edited by luismx123, 22 January 2020 - 08:55 PM.

[ACDodd]

Use the brand new stock.simplex gears with that setup.

Ac

[JonnyAlpha]

Use the brand new stock.simplex gears with that setup.

Ac

 

So this Crank Gear, this Cam Shaft Gear and this chain or would I be better off with an IWIS chain?

[JonnyAlpha]

 

Don't waste money with a vernier set. They are expensive and only get set accurately one time, unless the cam is subsequently changed. The most cost-effective way is to measure the necessary sprocket setting and use an offset woodruff key.

Just buy a top quality set of timing sprockets and a good duplex chain and it will be fine.

You don't need a tensioner, although one can be fitted if you so wish. I have twice seen broken tensioner pads on a duplex chain, possibly because the pad only rests on the centre of the chain with a duplex, but sits onto both sides with a simplex chain. Others have never seen any problems with a tensioner on a duplex chain, so maybe I have been unlucky (or those engines used too many revs!).

I totally understand that. The issue is however, the vernier kit costs 100, the steel duplex ones cost 75-80 and a woodruf key costs another 10. If youre experienced and know how to set the timing perfectly and you have a bunch of keys around then thats definitely the way to go. If I have to do it, that means checking what key I need, ordering it after Ive already ordered the duplex set and paying extra shipping again, then finding out I did something wrong and then ordering 2 extra keys once again...price above what a Vernier set wouldve costed, and then on the next build im stuck with some random woodruf keys and needing to invest in a couple more -.-
Thats my reasoning

 

 

I understand that I probably only need a Simplex setup with a IWIS chain, but I also wondered how many offset keys I would need before I got it correct

 

However, the cheapest Vernier by Mini Spares is this one at £105 and this one by MED cost £135 but comes with an IWIS chain, the countersunk screws and allen cap screws and spring washers for the CamShaft Triangle. 

 

As for Simplex this Crank Gear, this Cam Shaft Gear and this chain costs about £45.00 and WoodRuff keys are about £10 a pop so even if I need two it would be £40 less than the cheapest Vernier setup.

 

So the Jury is out on that one for the time being.

[luismx123]

 

 

Don't waste money with a vernier set. They are expensive and only get set accurately one time, unless the cam is subsequently changed. The most cost-effective way is to measure the necessary sprocket setting and use an offset woodruff key.

Just buy a top quality set of timing sprockets and a good duplex chain and it will be fine.

You don't need a tensioner, although one can be fitted if you so wish. I have twice seen broken tensioner pads on a duplex chain, possibly because the pad only rests on the centre of the chain with a duplex, but sits onto both sides with a simplex chain. Others have never seen any problems with a tensioner on a duplex chain, so maybe I have been unlucky (or those engines used too many revs!).

I totally understand that. The issue is however, the vernier kit costs 100, the steel duplex ones cost 75-80 and a woodruf key costs another 10. If youre experienced and know how to set the timing perfectly and you have a bunch of keys around then thats definitely the way to go. If I have to do it, that means checking what key I need, ordering it after Ive already ordered the duplex set and paying extra shipping again, then finding out I did something wrong and then ordering 2 extra keys once again...price above what a Vernier set wouldve costed, and then on the next build im stuck with some random woodruf keys and needing to invest in a couple more -.-
Thats my reasoning

 

 

I understand that I probably only need a Simplex setup with a IWIS chain, but I also wondered how many offset keys I would need before I got it correct

 

However, the cheapest Vernier by Mini Spares is this one at £105 and this one by MED cost £135 but comes with an IWIS chain, the countersunk screws and allen cap screws and spring washers for the CamShaft Triangle. 

 

As for Simplex this Crank Gear, this Cam Shaft Gear and this chain costs about £45.00 and WoodRuff keys are about £10 a pop so even if I need two it would be £40 less than the cheapest Vernier setup.

 

So the Jury is out on that one for the time being.

 

I get you, no worries, just I was talking about duplex vs vernier. Ofcourse, one could take the cheapest possible duplex available but I wont compare those as Id never stoop that low for something so crucial. My calculations were for me and for my example ;)

[gazza82]

WoodRuff keys are about £10 a pop so even if I need two it would be £40 less than the cheapest Vernier setup

I think the idea is you fit it all, time it in THEN buy the woodruff key to adjust the timing to what you need ... as then you know how far out the cam timing is.