42 replies to this topic

[Wazzah]

If the spi std ecu gets better results than the sc ecu then its user error. The base maps are awful and you really need a full mapping session to exploit it, the sc setup seems a much better choice than an old spi unit on its side. 

 

Its not comparing apples for apples. 

Hi Midas, I spent 12 months trying to get the SC ECU to run properly. This includes 2 faulty ecu's. They replaced one and i'm trying to get the latest one replaced. Yes I've had mapping sessions and spent thousands. SC themselves admitted problems with the firmware and released specific firmware for post 97 SPI's recently. How dare you tell me its user error. The problem lies in the fact that the ECU cannot read the staggered 36-4 timing pattern properly and injects fuel erratically because of that deficiency. This injection pattern is not  configurable in the SX Tune software. I'm here to tell you that the standard Rover ECU is infinity better that the SC Delta. MAP sensor for one. Stepper idle control for 2. Smooth running and zero backfiring for 3. You say that "it seems" the SC setup is a better choice. Please share your first hand experience and your map that works better than the awful SC maps. I'm happy to send you my maps for your analysis and judgement. My aim in this was to share my hobby with like mined enthusiasts. Constructive criticism and advice is always welcome. Insults are not.  Whilst I'm ranting it is comparing apples for apples. Same manifold used for both set ups. Use of an electronic brain and a side mounted throttle body. Similar power, better fuel economy and reliable drivability with them Rover apples.

[brivinci]

Well, I for one, find this a fascinating read and a very cool idea. Would be great to see what kind of gains this makes over standard. I dont mean outright power but more across the rev range. 

 

You got me thinking what would happen if you stuck this setup in a car with a boxed out bulkhead (like for a weber) and installed it on an even straighter intake manifold??

[Wazzah]

Hi Brivinci, I think your onto something. Have you seen the split webers and dead straight manifolds where they cut a weber in half to get the required spacing? I've just been out in the shed and twin SPI throttle bodies will fit side by side on the same split weber spacing. You would have to cut off the steeper motor housing off one of the TB's to make it fit. You could use the auto kickdown levers (redundant on a manual) to connect linkages. Smaller injectors in each throttle body would be required. I have developed some spatial awareness with my little project and your idea would work without bulkhead modifications. The longer the inlet runner the better torque in my opinion. I'll chop up a couple of my spare inlet manifolds and start a mock up. Bosch parts list here I come. Cheers Waz.

[andysspanners]

This could be very interesting. I like your idea. I agree, surely the longer straight inlets would help with torque. I was having a very quick look at this idea earlier, only real big issue I see is the stepper motors, as you say.
For us with JDM cars, it would be nice to retain the aircon and not have a continuous 1100rpm idle. Im sure there is a solution though. Interested to see what you come up with Wazzah. 

 

[Wazzah]

I reckon you can run one stepper to serve 2 throttle bodies via the common accelerator cable you would have to rig up.

Bosch don't seem to have an injector small enough which I reckon would be around 400cc per inlet runner.

Standard is a smidge over 600.

An ECU change might prove necessary to cut pulse widths to each runner.

This departs from my quest to get 90hp plus out of MEMS.

I realise 100 is possible but I'm being realistic.

I am loving Haltech ECU's at the moment.

There Elite 1000 ECU can handle 4 wire stepper motors and has the same inbuilt MAP sensor.

They handle the 36-4 firing order as they have a Rover K/ MGF compatibility which uses the same trigger pattern.

[andysspanners]

You are probably onto something there Wazzah. I definitely think an ECU change would be required to do this nicely. Ive also been looking at the Haltech stuff over the last few months. It seems some of the most interesting equipment out there at the moment, especially when considering a mini. Far more comprehensive than some other and the quality looks excellent.Plus the inbuilt MAP.
Twin spi setup on nice straight manifolds with 45mm throttles.......you would have a fire breather

[brivinci]

Someone needs to do this! It could be VERY cool.

[Magneto]

Vmaxcart has been using a Holley Performance 2bbl EFI setup with their superchargers now, I have a friend with one here in the states. I think it would be a beast!

 

So, I took a look at Holley's offerings and they have a single throttle plate EFI setup originally designed to replace the single bbl Autolite carbs used on small 6 cyl Ford 170-200cu in engines - (part number 550-552) this is a complete kit with the right fuel pump and everything needed to set it up including a wideband sensor. Obviously if you have a running system now you might only need the unit itself. However they say you need at least 60 psi fuel pressure. I don't know if a standard SPi fuel pump runs this high or not?

 

I was toying with the idea of using this on an SPi intake manifold in the same orientation as the original SPi setup. The advantage for me is that the Holley is a complete unit with the ECU built in and complete adjustability - it will also run the timing advance, including the vacuum advance - however it will not run a distributer-less setup. The bore on this unit is only 1.5", so I was concerned about losing HP since the engine I would use it on has an HIF44 now (1.75") I was also considering mounting it on it's side like the OP did with his SPi unit, and the same was Stuart does with his supercharger kit - clearly it will work in that orientation.

 

Link to this setup...  https://www.holley.c...l/parts/550-552

 

So next I looked at the 2bbl offering that Stuart used with his supercharger kit - but I'm concerned that on a mostly stock engine it would just be too much......still looking at both right now. 

 

This is the one Stuart uses   https://www.holley.c.../parts/550-849K

 

And one more, this one looks even more promising as the overall footprint is smaller - it's designed to replace the 2bbl carb on small Chevy V-8s   https://www.holley.c...2gc_small_bore/

 

Building a manifold would be the next hurdle with both the 2bbl setups

Edited by Magneto, 19 August 2020 - 07:55 PM.

[andysspanners]

yes, I was looking into these some time ago.
they look really neat!
Problem is, those of us with the later JDM minis run coil packs instead of a distributor...I guess even the earlier ones are electronic distributors, so the snipers won't be able to control that.
There is the Air con idle speed adjustment which is also a point.
Basically, I think it would be impossible to integrate this with a later JDM mini....I guess on a standard spi it could be OK as those blocks do have a hole for a distributor. Just go to an old fashioned dizzy set-up. Seems like a pain to me, but of course, everything is possible and could be cool.

 

[sonscar]

If you are serious about EFI it would be very short sighted to retain a distributor,just my experience with an MGB.Steve..

[Curley]

The MPI block should be an easy 'bolt on' conversation to 3d party ECU, the Crank and Cam sensors are already there built in; crank off the flywheel & cam off the back of the block . Cam choices can limit things a little as you'll need a cam with the sensor pickup but It's not impossible to have your favourite profile ground onto an MPI blank.

 

I'm fitting the Haltech 1500 (which is capably of controlling your Aircon) to an SC throttle body. 36-1 pulley for CPS, modified SPI Dizzy for CAM al la project Binky. In theory it'll be able to run sequential ignition. Currently looking at coil-near-plug options to replace a wasted spark setup; however I foresee the bigger issue being the siamese inlet ports, it leaves a very small window to inject fuel, making injector choice critical. The better option would be a cross flow 7 or 8 port head but that's a whole other thread.

 

I'd be interested to see what you get put together Wazzah, twin TB's on straight runners could be a thing.

Edited by Curley, 20 August 2020 - 10:40 PM.

[andysspanners]

If you are serious about EFI it would be very short sighted to retain a distributor,just my experience with an MGB.Steve..

100% agree

[Wazzah]

Hi Curly,

My 99 JDM has an MPI block, runs SPI injection gear with a wasted spark ignition fired off the 36-4 MPI flywheel.

This is a factory set up.

I do not have the cam sensor as part of the factory set up but it does have the boss at the rear of the block.

The standard cam has a concentric lobe that I assume is the trigger for the cam sensor.

I'm fitting an SW-5 cam at the moment and it has the same lobe.

I'm certain I can just add the sensor if I ever need it.

This factory set up has it's own unique Rover MEMS ECU number MNE101351.

This is a cooper tune for the higher compression motor.

I'm going through the Haltech process as well.

The elite 1000 is enough for my application.

It can run the stepper motor and has the Rover 36-4 trigger pattern.

I also have a SC 45mm Throttle Body and a dead Delta 400.

My SPI TB has been modified to 45mm also.

I'm in the middle of a plug and play lead from MEMS 

I have been talking to Haltech and they are terrific.

I agree they can do sequential injection and they also can do semi sequential which would work a treat in a siamese port engine.

I actually think a Haltech would be a fantastic upgrade for an MPI.

I'm in 2 minds about the SC TB.

Certainly there is ample fueling capability with twin 440cc's.

I feel that this type of set up needs a certain amount of "plenum" area for want of a better word.

Being a wet manifold set up I believe the SPI injection before the throttle plate allows for a more consistent mix.

I couldn't get the SC TB to fuel correctly and one of the reasons I think is the injectors, fired as a batch, are too close to the branch in the manifold.

The whole SC setup just converts a clever MPI into a dumb SPI and makes a reasonable SPI system even dumber.

The other thing with the Haltech is the MAP sensor and real world load sensing through that.

SC does not have that ability and is better off on a low vacuum type system like a multiple carb motorbike engine.

So I'm about 2 weeks of completing my engine rebuild and I'll mount the modified Rover SPI 45mm TB on the side draught set up and get it dyno'ed for torque and HP.

Anything over 90hp and 90 ft/lbs and I'll be rapt.

Once that is running I'll start playing with the Haltech.

More HP will be available because I wont have to rely on Rovers target lambda.

100/ 100 is the target.

Once the Haltech is running I'll head down the twin TB road.

A semi sequential 1-2 then 3-4 injector firing like the MPI will be necessary for this.

Hence the cam sensor mentioned earlier.

Side draught of course with a slight upsweep to gain about 5mm in height to clear the heater inlet hose on the bulkhead.

I've ordered a couple of standard TB's off Popsguild. Hi Roger!!

I'm imagining the need for a couple of cross over pipes between the twin manifolds to assist with vacuum and perhaps to ease the Siamese crap.

Sorry if I waffle on a bit but it gives me something to do.

[andysspanners]

The MPI block should be an easy 'bolt on' conversation to 3d party ECU, the Crank and Cam sensors are already there built in; crank off the flywheel & cam off the back of the block . Cam choices can limit things a little as you'll need a cam with the sensor pickup but It's not impossible to have your favourite profile ground onto an MPI blank.

 

I'm fitting the Haltech 1500 (which is capably of controlling your Aircon) to an SC throttle body. 36-1 pulley for CPS, modified SPI Dizzy for CAM al la project Binky. In theory it'll be able to run sequential ignition. Currently looking at coil-near-plug options to replace a wasted spark setup; however I foresee the bigger issue being the siamese inlet ports, it leaves a very small window to inject fuel, making injector choice critical. The better option would be a cross flow 7 or 8 port head but that's a whole other thread.

 

I'd be interested to see what you get put together Wazzah, twin TB's on straight runners could be a thing.

 you are exactly right Curley, and the Haltech ECU should do the trick perfectly.
But the sniper ( for example) which Magneto is talking about is more a carb replacement than a third party ECU.

Anyway, totally wandered off topic......
Im sure Wazzah is working some magic, looking forward to seeing what he comes up with

[Wazzah]

Hey Curly,

Let us now what you come up with on the coil on plug idea.

Haltech have a coil near plug for LS1's which will work.

Regards

Waz