54 replies to this topic

[JonnyAlpha]

 

Ok I have put this in the chat area as I am just throwing some thoughts out there and don't want to get shot down in flames. Which when looking at the title many of you will say you should never cut costs when rebuilding an engine

 

Anyway, I am costing up my options to upgrade my 1982 HLE 1000 which I refurbished in the project link below. I never got around to lifting the engine and dropping the front subframe and want to do this now.

 

To compliment the engine I am also going to tidy up the engine compartment and do a 7.5 Drum to Disc Brake conversion.

 

I have costed near enough everything up and it comes to just over £2500, but what I am trying to do now is see where I can cut / reduce any costs, by either omitting something or doing it later (without having to lift the engine maybe) after the build is completed and the car is on the road again. 

 

Possible reductions I am considering or after fits that I could get away are:

1. Re-using the old clutch from the 1275 (Not the best option) (my 998 needs replacing I believe as it jumps at the top of the bite).

2. Electronic Ignition - Easy later upgrade but would impact the engines performance 

3. Radiator and Hoses on the 998 option as my original 998 Radiator whilst a little battered would be inappropriate for the 1275 but what about a higher performance 1079 / 1098?

 

Build Options are:

 

1. My 998 bored to 1079 with a 12G295 head (which I have but is missing rockers) 

2. My 998 bored to 1098 12G295 as above (good SH 1098 crank inbound) 

3 1275 prob bored to 1293 (I have a salvaged early MG Metro A+ 1275 that's done about 50k all bores are good but one has some slight rust damage from having coolant sitting on top of the piston (may remove with a hone?)

 

My costings for the above are as follows:

Machining

4. Rebore 

5. Re-Face Block

6. Crank Re-Grind

7. Cylinder Head Refurb

8. Flywheel / Clutch Balancing

£625

 

Upgraded Parts

9. BP255 Cam

10. Cam Followers

11. Cam Chain

12. Oil Pump

13. Pistons

14. AP Rated Clutch Kit

15. 3.1 FD Crown Wheel and Pinion

£780

 

Additional Parts

16. Electronic Ignition

17. New Aluminium Radiator

18. Radiator Hoses

 

£380

 

Sundries

19. Engine Gasket Set

20. Gearbox Gasket Set

21. Cylinder Studs

22. Engine Build Lube

23. Zinc Plating Existing Nuts, Bolts and Brackets

24. Engine Enamel Paint

£150

 

Sub Total £1935

 

Stage One and Disc Conversion

£600

 

Grand Total £2535

 

I am sure there will be other costs over and above the above such as paint, brake hoses etc. I also have not included the cost of sintered rockers for the 12G295.

 

I have a HIF 38 and 44 but was considering dual SUs.

I am also unsure of which choice, small bore or large bore (don't reply to that because I have already asked this question several times and the results always sway towards large bore (bang for the buck).

 

Your thoughts / advice would be most welcomed

most of that is a waste of money.

seriously look at the Minispares short motors.

http://www.minispare...px|Back to shop

then add a head

http://www.minispare...px|Back to shop

 get a needle to suit. a few gaskets and the clutch kit you want and you are way under your figure.

nicklouse - not sure where your getting your figures from but the 1293 short engine from Minispares is £1175.32 + £399.60 for this head  (the cheapest Cylinder Head they do) and a 180mm clutch kit @ £116.42 comes to £1691.34.

 

My pricing comes out at £1555. (Machining £625, parts £780, sundries £150.

[JonnyAlpha]

Well, I just dropped the 1275 off at a local Engine Shop to give me a price.

They did a member of our clubs Moggy Engine, complete strip, re-bore, balanced, rebuild,  Pistons, Duplex Timing Chain, Crank Grind, Fast Road Cam, Head Re-Built with unleaded inserts - For £1400.

 

Couple things that concerned me a little when I dropped it off was that, even though I left my Valves they suggested they would use new ones anyway, why not clean mine up and use them if they can? The gentleman that I spoke to also commented when looking at the valves "Mmm these are big valves, they look like Turbo". This is a early MG Metro Head or so I have been told, with standard valves (according to the measurements I took and posted on this forum some time ago).

If they replace them with new valves this is going to bump up the price?

 

And the CAM they want to use is a Kent MD266? According to my research these cost around £280 whereas the Evolution 001 is only about £80 and the Piper BP255 (as recommended by Kieth Calver) is £204.

 

They don't do the gearboxes themselves and he suggested that the GBox would need stripping down and rebuilding (I hadn't factored this into the equation :-( Anyway when I mentioned a Centre Main Strap and Centre Oil Pick Up again the gentleman seemed a little miffed (I hope he was not the gentleman doing the work!!  More concerns :-(

 

Anyway only a quote.

Edited by JonnyAlpha, 04 February 2019 - 04:33 PM.

[DeadSquare]

Where are you going to use all this power ? in narrow Devon lanes.

 

Put the engine in and run it as it is.

[JonnyAlpha]

Where are you going to use all this power ? in narrow Devon lanes.

 

Put the engine in and run it as it is.

 

Cylinder 1 appears to have had some coolant sitting in it for about 15 years and there is some slight rust damage. I asked the machine shop if this could be honed but they said that they wouldn't recommend?

 

So it needs a rebore and while the engine is out why not fit a decent Cam?

Edited by JonnyAlpha, 04 February 2019 - 04:44 PM.

[DeadSquare]

Your heading is cost cutting

 

 

"but they said that they wouldn't recommend it"

 

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they ?

 

You have got a 50K mileage, nicely run in engine with as much power as a 1071 Cooper S and more torque.

 

Have you measured the crank?, does it need a regrind or are you throwing away 25K miles of life.

 

Have you done a compression test, does it need rings?

 

Does the block really need refacing? and what is wrong with the head studs?

 

Capping the center main is a the sort of thing to do if the engine is going to be abused with out & out power.

 

An Evo  cam should do you nicely and be nice and gentle on your old cam followers.  You can fit it yourself and I wouldn't begrudge you fitting a new oil pump and duplex timing chain.

 

How rusty are your nuts and bolts?, if they are rusty, replace them, if not, what makes you think they  need zinc plating ?

 

 

 

I'm trying to cut your costs, as you asked.

[JonnyAlpha]

Your heading is cost cutting

 

 

"but they said that they wouldn't recommend it"

 

Well, they would say that, wouldn't they ?

 

You have got a 50K mileage, nicely run in engine with as much power as a 1071 Cooper S and more torque.

 

Have you measured the crank?, does it need a regrind or are you throwing away 25K miles of life.

 

Have you done a compression test, does it need rings?

 

Does the block really need refacing? and what is wrong with the head studs?

 

Capping the center main is a the sort of thing to do if the engine is going to be abused with out & out power.

 

An Evo  cam should do you nicely and be nice and gentle on your old cam followers.  You can fit it yourself and I wouldn't begrudge you fitting a new oil pump and duplex timing chain.

 

How rusty are your nuts and bolts?, if they are rusty, replace them, if not, what makes you think they  need zinc plating ?

 

 

 

I'm trying to cut your costs, as you asked.

 

Wise words - should have changed the title

 

The engines been sat idle for 15 - 18 years in a car outside of a barn so it needs to be stripped, checked and rebuilt.

I haven't measured the crank as I had not stripped to block down.

Didn't do a compression test either as the head had been partly undone (not sure why). 

 

So unless I am revving the nuts off this thing no centre main strap.

 

Most nuts are rusty due to the cars history mentioned above.

 

This was the engine after I removed it from the car:

 

 

Here's the cylinder head after I cleaned it up a little:

 

 

This was the worst Exhaust Valve Seat:

 

 

 Gearbox:

 

 

And here's how I found it:

 

 

And here is a very short video after I managed to free up the cylinder that had the crystalized coolant sitting in it:

Metro 1275 A+ Salvaged

[nicklouse]

 

 

Ok I have put this in the chat area as I am just throwing some thoughts out there and don't want to get shot down in flames. Which when looking at the title many of you will say you should never cut costs when rebuilding an engine

 

Anyway, I am costing up my options to upgrade my 1982 HLE 1000 which I refurbished in the project link below. I never got around to lifting the engine and dropping the front subframe and want to do this now.

 

To compliment the engine I am also going to tidy up the engine compartment and do a 7.5 Drum to Disc Brake conversion.

 

I have costed near enough everything up and it comes to just over £2500, but what I am trying to do now is see where I can cut / reduce any costs, by either omitting something or doing it later (without having to lift the engine maybe) after the build is completed and the car is on the road again. 

 

Possible reductions I am considering or after fits that I could get away are:

1. Re-using the old clutch from the 1275 (Not the best option) (my 998 needs replacing I believe as it jumps at the top of the bite).

2. Electronic Ignition - Easy later upgrade but would impact the engines performance 

3. Radiator and Hoses on the 998 option as my original 998 Radiator whilst a little battered would be inappropriate for the 1275 but what about a higher performance 1079 / 1098?

 

Build Options are:

 

1. My 998 bored to 1079 with a 12G295 head (which I have but is missing rockers) 

2. My 998 bored to 1098 12G295 as above (good SH 1098 crank inbound) 

3 1275 prob bored to 1293 (I have a salvaged early MG Metro A+ 1275 that's done about 50k all bores are good but one has some slight rust damage from having coolant sitting on top of the piston (may remove with a hone?)

 

My costings for the above are as follows:

Machining

4. Rebore 

5. Re-Face Block

6. Crank Re-Grind

7. Cylinder Head Refurb

8. Flywheel / Clutch Balancing

£625

 

Upgraded Parts

9. BP255 Cam

10. Cam Followers

11. Cam Chain

12. Oil Pump

13. Pistons

14. AP Rated Clutch Kit

15. 3.1 FD Crown Wheel and Pinion

£780

 

Additional Parts

16. Electronic Ignition

17. New Aluminium Radiator

18. Radiator Hoses

 

£380

 

Sundries

19. Engine Gasket Set

20. Gearbox Gasket Set

21. Cylinder Studs

22. Engine Build Lube

23. Zinc Plating Existing Nuts, Bolts and Brackets

24. Engine Enamel Paint

£150

 

Sub Total £1935

 

Stage One and Disc Conversion

£600

 

Grand Total £2535

 

I am sure there will be other costs over and above the above such as paint, brake hoses etc. I also have not included the cost of sintered rockers for the 12G295.

 

I have a HIF 38 and 44 but was considering dual SUs.

I am also unsure of which choice, small bore or large bore (don't reply to that because I have already asked this question several times and the results always sway towards large bore (bang for the buck).

 

Your thoughts / advice would be most welcomed

most of that is a waste of money.

seriously look at the Minispares short motors.

http://www.minispare...px|Back to shop

then add a head

http://www.minispare...px|Back to shop

 get a needle to suit. a few gaskets and the clutch kit you want and you are way under your figure.

nicklouse - not sure where your getting your figures from but the 1293 short engine from Minispares is £1175.32 + £399.60 for this head  (the cheapest Cylinder Head they do) and a 180mm clutch kit @ £116.42 comes to £1691.34.

 

My pricing comes out at £1555. (Machining £625, parts £780, sundries £150.

 

and the TMF discount.

[beardylondon]

Try Bromsgrove Engine Services, they normally have a waiting list, but top quality work.

[JonnyAlpha]

 

 

 

 

most of that is a waste of money.

seriously look at the Minispares short motors.

http://www.minispare...px|Back to shop

then add a head

http://www.minispare...px|Back to shop

 get a needle to suit. a few gaskets and the clutch kit you want and you are way under your figure.

nicklouse - not sure where your getting your figures from but the 1293 short engine from Minispares is £1175.32 + £399.60 for this head  (the cheapest Cylinder Head they do) and a 180mm clutch kit @ £116.42 comes to £1691.34.

 

My pricing comes out at £1555. (Machining £625, parts £780, sundries £150.

 

and the TMF discount.

 

 

Oh yeh forgot about that.

 

My only concern about buying a made up half engine is that the head needs to be matched to ensure the correct CR and I am not sure which head I would need to get. And I have just realised that none of the heads come with Rockers and the engine does not have push rods?

[cal844]

most of that is a waste of money.
seriously look at the Minispares short motors.
http://www.minispare...px|Back to shop
then add a head
http://www.minispare...px|Back to shop
get a needle to suit. a few gaskets and the clutch kit you want and you are way under your figure.

nicklouse - not sure where your getting your figures from but the 1293 short engine from Minispares is £1175.32 + £399.60 for this head (the cheapest Cylinder Head they do) and a 180mm clutch kit @ £116.42 comes to £1691.34.

My pricing comes out at £1555. (Machining £625, parts £780, sundries £150.

and the TMF discount.

Oh yeh forgot about that.

My only concern about buying a made up half engine is that the head needs to be matched to ensure the correct CR and I am not sure which head I would need to get. And I have just realised that none of the heads come with Rockers and the engine does not have push rods?

Rockers can be reused or refaced if needed, the pushrods again can be used again

[JonnyAlpha]

 

The 998 and 1275 clutches aren't interchangeable (the 998 one is 180 and the 1275 is 190mm). And the hoes aren't, well just the top hoses are different, but changing a bottom hose isn't much fun without having to at least remove the radiator first.

yes they are they were all the same size to start with only the very last ones got a bigger one.

 

 

This is a 1989 (I believe) Mk 2 Metro so is this a 180mm clutch - I guess I could go and measure it, where is the measurement taken?

[JonnyAlpha]

CAM Shafts

So as far as CAM shafts are concerned I was originally looking at the Minispares EVOULTION001, however was then told to use the BP255 and more recently, the machine shop that I have just dropped then engine off at for a quote have said that they only use Kent CAMs in their engines and will quote the MD266 Fast Road Cam.

 

So for a decent fast road going car what are your thoughts:

 

1. Standard Metro CAM (Not 100% sure what engine this is as the ID plate disintegrated)

2. Kent MD266

3. Piper BP255

4. Evolution001 

 

Also been advised that the standard Metro CAM is similar to both the Kent and the Piper. 

And taking onboard info in this thread already, the EVO is only £80 odd and with TMF discount if its an improvement on the standard CAM then why not  

[Carlos W]

CAM Shafts
So as far as CAM shafts are concerned I was originally looking at the Minispares EVOULTION001, however was then told to use the BP255 and more recently, the machine shop that I have just dropped then engine off at for a quote have said that they only use Kent CAMs in their engines and will quote the MD266 Fast Road Cam.
 
So for a decent fast road going car what are your thoughts:
 
1. Standard Metro CAM (Not 100% sure what engine this is as the ID plate disintegrated)
2. Kent MD266
3. Piper BP255
4. Evolution001 
 
Also been advised that the standard Metro CAM is similar to both the Kent and the Piper. 
And taking onboard info in this thread already, the EVO is only £80 odd and with TMF discount if its an improvement on the standard CAM then why not

AC Dodd RS cam

[cal844]

AC Dodd RS is a great cam

[haz]

286 scatter was my choice back in the day. Maybe a 276 if you want something a little less lumpy at low revs. 

 

The 266 is indeed similar to the metro cam. Not sure on the piper. 

 

What happened to the swifttune cams? SW5 and SW7 were becoming popular when I left the scene.