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Roll Cage Opinions!


Best Answer minimans , 13 September 2017 - 05:48 PM

As someone who was driving a mini from the age of 15 years old, I had my fair share of accidents due to youthful exuberance! I've rolled twice in a road car one involved a multiple roll down Box hill in Surrey.........Both without roll cages and I'm still here with all limbs and digits intact! The mini is a strong little box and the roof pillars are strong enough to hold the roof up in a roll over situation. I've also rolled in a race car WITH a cage and helmet and ended up in hospital with concussion from whacking my head on the side bar....................................

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#31 tiger99

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 07:40 PM

Due to the mass of metal added quite high in the shell, a roll cage actually increases the risk of having a roll. A standard Mini is exceedingly difficult to roll, like most properly proportioned modern cars (SUVs or "Stupid Uncouth Vehicles" excepted!) because the centre of mass is low. It will slide sideways before rolling, unless the wheels trip up on something like a kerb.

 

There once was an argument about whether the RNLI should buy self-righting or non self-righting lifeboats. The self-righting variety turns over more easily than the non self-righting kind. I seem to recall it being debated in parliament in the early 1960s, not that parliament had the competence to decide. Much more technical than duck islands.... That is just typical of the dilemma surrounding many safety systems and devices. There is almost always a downside.

 

Concerning the specifics of the Mini, I have seen a fair number that had been used in crash research, and would suggest that the main need is for subframe intrusion protection, by reinforcing the toeboard area. extending to the forward part of the inner sills. (That would combine neatly with the reinforcing needed to convert to solid mounts.) Subframe intrusion tends to leave you permanently crippled, possibly with no feet and lower legs, or trapped in a burning car, so is best avoided. (I have seen dummies severely trapped, and with damaged feet.) Secondly is the official side impact protection included in later models, in the doors. Just fit later doors. As has already been said, they stand up to being rolled fairly well. Flip fronters have a vastly increased set of problems in a frontal impact, for no gain at all, so please don't do it!

 

Again, like the lifeboat dilemma, the rubber mounted subframe is probably less likely to trap or remove the driver's feet (possibly the true reason for introducing it, as legislation about frontal impact protection was coming), but as we know, it ruins the handling.



#32 Cooperman

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Posted 15 September 2017 - 11:13 PM

Oh Tiger, yo do go 'over the top' sometimes with this safety stuff.

 

Of course the roll cage might raise the C of G very slightly, but nothing like as much as having  passengers in the car with their C's of G about 2.5 ft up from floor level. You'll be saying best to drive a Mini only solo in case it rolls unexpectedly.

 

In a full frontal impact the intrusion is no-where near as dangerous as in most other classic cars. The old Healey 3000 is an example, where the steering shaft can impail you in a frontal impact. Then there is the 1948 to 1951 Ford V8 Pilot where the brakes are totally unsuitable for a 90 mph car. The list of old cars which fail to get anywhere near modern standards is endless. The Renault Dauphine, with its swing axle suspension, could 'fall over' if it encountered a bump in a corner when driving with any sort of 'spirit'. 

 

I was in a 1968 Cooper 'S' (mine) which my driver (I was navigating) crashed head on into a truck on a road section of a rally in N.Italy. We only had a rear cage, but the impact was hard enough to crease the shell, move the sub-frame back, kink the scuttle panel, break the clutch casing and the clutch and destroy the distributor, front wings, front panel, etc.

 

We stepped out uninjured and surveyed the damage with me remarking "Oh dear, it seems to be broken"!

 

There are many reasons not to fit a cage in a road car (see above), but raising the C of G is not one of them.

 

I also don't understand why you go on about SUV's. If I liked them and wanted one I would buy one. It could be quite useful for me as I tow glider trailers, car trailers and sometimes carry a lot of equipment for de-rigging sailplanes or fixing classic cars. I actually have a Land Rover Discovery for that, but an SUV would be fine for most of what I do.

 

If people are concerned about the lack of modern safety features on 60-year-old designed classic cars then the best thing they should do is to stick with modern cars. If one drives a classic car of any type it needs to be driven appropriately, then the safety aspects are not an issue.



#33 Northernpower

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 10:27 AM

There once was an argument about whether the RNLI should buy self-righting or non self-righting lifeboats. The self-righting variety turns over more easily than the non self-righting kind. I seem to recall it being debated in parliament in the early 1960s, not that parliament had the competence to decide. Much more technical than duck islands.

What a load of tosh. Being a supporter of the RNLI I can tell you the whole ethos of the RNLI is independence from government. They have never received government funding and would not countenance any government interference in their decision making. They are entirely funded by voluntary donations and are completely independent in their decision making.

You need to stop making statements without foundation, it does make you look rather silly.


Edited by Northernpower, 16 September 2017 - 11:04 AM.


#34 minifreek1

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 03:34 PM

As said, I have a full cage fitted to mine.

 

I fitted it, because I wanted to... I do however take it onto race tracks for track days...

 

I also don't believe it will add lots to the C of G and cause my mini to roll over easier than it would without it...



#35 CityEPete

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 07:52 PM

As a motorcyclist I find all these worries Tiger can't sleep over totally pointless, I was watching that programme with disabled people crossing thailand, one guy tripped over taking plates outside at a bbq and broke his neck! Don't be stupid but don't spend your whole life trying to find fault with everything that 'might' happen.

#36 One step at a time

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:00 PM

Do they add any structural stiffness? even if you were to fit only a rear section with diagonal bar.

#37 paulrockliffe

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 08:53 PM

I'm not bother about the roll-over bit, but I'd quite like the door bars and the rest of the lower structure.  I'm surprised no one makes a cage for the road that doesn't have the roll-over.



#38 minifreek1

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 10:28 PM

Do they add any structural stiffness? even if you were to fit only a rear section with diagonal bar.

To a point - yes they do give some ridgity to the shell... either with or without the diagonal, thats more for drive protection in a rollover...



#39 nicklouse

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 10:41 PM

I'm not bother about the roll-over bit, but I'd quite like the door bars and the rest of the lower structure.  I'm surprised no one makes a cage for the road that doesn't have the roll-over.

i am not. they would be very dangerous.



#40 nicklouse

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Posted 16 September 2017 - 10:41 PM

 

Do they add any structural stiffness? even if you were to fit only a rear section with diagonal bar.

To a point - yes they do give some ridgity to the shell... either with or without the diagonal, thats more for drive protection in a rollover...

 

it depends on the cage. they range from some to lots.



#41 pete l

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 07:17 AM

So how would one go about strenthening the toe board and floor, which is about as strong and butter, to prevent/improve intrusion ?



#42 nicklouse

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 07:58 AM

buy a cage that includes the strengthening in that area.

 

most of the weld-ins do this.

 

like I said there are many "cages" available.



#43 paulrockliffe

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 11:25 AM

Why's that then?  Everytime this question is asked the main safety concern raised is hitting your head on the roll over hoop and that the Mini is strong enough and unlikely enough not to roll that it's unlikely to do anything other than smack you on the head.  So why not just get rid of that bit?



#44 nicklouse

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 12:40 PM

Why's that then?  Everytime this question is asked the main safety concern raised is hitting your head on the roll over hoop and that the Mini is strong enough and unlikely enough not to roll that it's unlikely to do anything other than smack you on the head.  So why not just get rid of that bit?

so what is going to stop them moving?

 

you would just have unsupported parts.

 

look at the anti intrusion bars in the later doors. they tie up with the A and B pillars and roof.



#45 Cooperman

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 01:56 PM

I am amazed that some people who own classic cars are concerned that they lack structural integrity.

Of course the structural integrity may be less than a modern Euro-Box, but that is part of what classic car ownership is about and classic enthusiasts have to accept that. 

If classics were so dangerous as some seem to make out the insurance premiums would be huge. However, due to the low mileages classics do and the care with which the loving owners drive them they are statistically very safe.

They don't need to be made more structurally stiff, so long as they are rust-free. 

Just restore them as necessary and enjoy the retro driving experience of how it was in the 1960's, which is what the classic Mini, and many other cars, represents. Why else would anyone buy one? They are slow, uncomfortable, lack modern reliability, they go rusty, they leak, but they are FUN, FUN, FUN  ;D .






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