13 replies to this topic

[Magneto]

I have a friend with coilovers on his Vtech Mini P'up, and it rides nicely......much smoother and more controlled than my car on rubber springs. I installed a set of Pro Tech coilovers and I'm wondering about others experiences with them or with other brands......

My expectations were that I'd have increased suspension travel because the spring is longer and a better ride than with my old squashed flat rubber springs. So far it rides more like a race car.....I haven't messed with the shock settings yet, right now they're full soft, but considering how stiff it is right now I can't imagine stiffening the shocks is going to help matters.

So, what has your experience been?

[Icey]

We started with coil-overs all around and I don't like them at all. We switched the rear back to cones and a full subframe earlier this year and will convert back to cones at the front either over winter or early next year.

 

I don't find they increase suspension travel, they can't without risking damage to knuckle joints at the front and arch fouling at the rear.

 

What I do find is that they are overly harsh. Cones provide a progressive spring rate, the springs we have/had don't as they were linearly wound. We could have looked at other solutions (i.e. progressive springs) but it just doesn't make sense for a mixed use car. If we were track only I'd put more effort in, but we are doing more road miles at the moment so I want something much less fussy.

 

And to put it quite simply - it didn't feel like a Mini when on coil-overs. It's difficult to quantify but one of the big drivers behind the reversion is that it felt like we had removed (or dulled) one of the most appealing characteristics of a Mini.

[FlyingScot]

Have coilovers on my Cooper 35, ride not as good a std cones and will be changing back

Too squidgy IMHO

FS

Edited by FlyingScot, 15 October 2016 - 06:04 AM.

[smudger068]

I run with Gaz Coilovers. I just had the mini cornered and 4 wheel aligned yesterday and I feel much safer now but it still isn't right.

I think people find it harsh, one because the travel isn't actually there. Have you looked to see how much travel you actually have when the car is stationary? Secondly because with such soft springs the chances of it spending most of its travel life hitting the stops is highly likely. Put a tie wrap around your coilover shaft and see what's happening. Mine was shifted right under the stop.

[Spider]

With conventional springs, coil overs or rubber cone replacements, you loose a lot of easy tunability of the suspension. A lot has been mentioned of the progressive or rising rate of the Rubber Cone system and this in itself can be tuned or adjusted in ways that are not remotely possible with coil springs.

 

Also, Rubber Cones have in themselves high damping qualities. Not sure? Grab a Rubber Cone, put it on the workshop floor and dong it with a hammer - hard, doubtful, but you may get one reverberation from it. Try the same with a Spring and it's ring a tune for up to a minute. This can be viewed as both good and bad for the Rubber Cone. Good that you don't need much in the way of dampers and bad that damper tuning doesn't have as big an effect as it would with conventional springs. The damper choice for Springs is far more critical than is for Rubber Cones, it will also work much 'harder' than will do on Cones, we  often read about a wish-washy ride with Coil Springs and this is why.

 

As the other guys have said, the spring or cone does not set the suspension travel, that's done in the suspension design itself, however, it is important that the spring is effective over the full range of travel that it does have.

 

IMO, Rubber Cones are great and run rings around any spring tens times over. They do fall down in two areas though, one is they sag as we all know, the other is that their rate does change with temperature.

 

Coming to the topic question, yes, I've had extensive experience with Coil Overs and actually make them in small batches. I can and have made types that can be used as 'stand alone' types, but often (99.99999%) of the time are used as an 'assist' unit to increase the total spring rate and so are used in conjunction with the Rubber Cone.

 

Edited by Moke Spider, 15 October 2016 - 09:53 AM.

[Cooperman]

Personally I am not a fan of any sort of coil spring on a road Mini.

 

Now for a race car it is entirely different. A coil spring with a much higher initial rate can be used as a replacement for a rubber spring and thus get less body roll when entering a corner and thus a better tyre profile and hence cornering grip, which is what is needed on a track.

 

But, and this is the big BUT, for a road car the initial rate must be low and the springs must be rising-rate. The rubber cone spring does this better than any coil spring. That way the bumps found on public roads can be absorbed progressively There is no logical reason why, for the road, a coil spring can be an improvement over a rubber cone spring. Of course, those selling the coil spring kits will tell you differently, but they just want your cash! Some owners say that they have fitted coils to get a smoother ride. For a smoother ride one can fit the 'Smootha-Ride' rubber springs, raise the ride height a bit, say by 3/4" from standard, then fit quality adjustable dampers to enable it to be set correctly. That way the initial suspension travel is softer with the spring rate rising as the suspension is compressed and it is very accurate.

 

On a road car coil springs are not any sort of performance improver as the accuracy of the spring rate will never match that achieved with the rubber cone springs.

 

If you are racing on a very smooth track then coil springs can be ideal as there is no need for initial soft compliance stiffening as the suspension depresses and a high single-rate coil can be good, but for a road application they are not as good as the original rubber springs

[Magneto]

So far, all of your comments parallel my experience, but first off I think I have them set way too low....the compromise is that as you tighten the spring, you actually lose space between the coils which can limit travel - on bumps anyway. I'm still experimenting with them, I hope I'm not disappointed in the end but so far I know I don't have it correct. I also haven't messed with the shock damping, I'm going to tighten them up a few clicks today too and see what that does for me, one way or the other.

Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to do, you have X amount of suspension travel and plenty of room for a coil spring - modern cars don't ride harshly, seems like it should be do-able with a Mini as well.

Thanks for all your replies.....I hope I can get a decent compromise sorted out. Otherwise I'll be ordering a new set of cones.

Edited by Magneto, 15 October 2016 - 02:59 PM.

[nicklouse]

Sounds like your springs are too soft.

[Magneto]

This morning I took the wheels off and wound the springs up - quite a bit in the front and only about an inch in the rear - huge difference. I also set the shocks four clicks up from dead soft (out of 13) so now I'll just have to drive it a bit and see how it does as they settle in...I have a feeling I'm not done fiddling with them but I'm encouraged by the improvement. I also have some rear camber/toe plates to install, once I do I can get the alignment dialed in further. I don't run crazy angles - .5 camber and 3 caster in the front, .5 camber in the rear......

Appreciate all the feedback.

Edited by Magneto, 15 October 2016 - 06:33 PM.

[Cooperman]

Once you get it all set up it might be almost as good as a Mini with rubber cone springs   .

[smudger068]

Would be interesting to know spring rates and ride heights..

[nicklouse]

Sorry first you need to know the installation as that has the greatest effect of Spring rate.

Ride height is a poor bit of info as it can be achieved is many different ways.

Spring weight is a result of knowing the weight that is needed to be supported and the leverage ratio of the suspension set up.

[Spider]

Would be interesting to know spring rates and ride heights..

 

Sorry, but IMO, it's too broad a question for a sensible answer.

 

 

Sorry first you need to know the installation as that has the greatest effect of Spring rate.

Ride height is a poor bit of info as it can be achieved is many different ways.

Spring weight is a result of knowing the weight that is needed to be supported and the leverage ratio of the suspension set up.

 

Coil Over Spring rates that I've fitted are from 30 lb / in up to 220 lb / in.

 

One of the popular Coil Spring replacements for the Rubber Cones run at 2314 lb / in, which for the most part, is 'stiffer' than the Red Spot Cones

[smudger068]

Well spring rate is the spring he puts on...
Installation angle is the same as mine surely...
Ride height ... fair enough.