95 replies to this topic

[Mini Manannán]

Luckily (sometimes) we're not in the UK so none of this will apply here.  We have no MOT just a 'roadworthiness examination' if an imported vehicle is over 3 years old, this is a one-off test, the vehicle will never get tested again (unless the Old Bill insist).  Road fund (tax) is £15 for any vehicle built before 1982, no mileage limits! 

[b_sdaddy]

There are many possiblities for how these matters could be dealt with. Belgium and Germany have a system, as does Holland and as do other EU member states.

 

But this is the UK, and these proposals are purely aimed at the UK, and for the UK gov to act on without the EU having a final say. -- Irrespective of us being in or out of the EU.

 

Hence, can I ask how many people in the UK, who own a classic car, perhaps one that is NOT factory standard, a couple of simple questions?

 

Irrespective of you believing that it may happen or not -----

 

1) would you welcome being told you are only allowed to travel 1000 miles or less per year on public roads?

 

2) Would you be upset if as a result of your car not meeting NEW VHI rules, you had to pay FAR more in a special road tax each year, or worse still be banned from the roads completely, unless you restore the car to factory spec?

 

I may be wrong, but from the lack of responses, not particularly here I should add, but elsewhere, it seems to me that most people simply just don't care too much about any of thise either way.  If that is the case, then I suspect that the days of classic cars on UK roads, are severely numbered.

But you should consider that if this was applied to ALL road cars, how many would fail in respect of after-market add-ons. 

 

If classic cars must be 'factory', then surely all cars must.?

 

Non-standard wheels.? Exhausts.? Suspension.? Seats.?

 

The after-market sector on alloy wheels alone must be worth tens of millions per year in the UK alone.

 

But the issue becomes more complex, when the after-market 'add-ons' are BETTER than the original factory-fitted component.

 

I would suggest that my mini would stop safer, fitted with discs up front and on 10 x 5's, as apposed to drums and 10" x 3,5's

 

And I'd feel a whole lot safer in a modern bucket-type (supportive) seat with harness, than a non-inertia seatbelt and a saggy lounge chair to sit on.

 

Safety is paramount, and if a car passes a test with factory or non-factory components, it should be pretty much irrelevant. The car is deemed safe to drive on public roads. It's not a concours event where judges start inspecting the type of HT

 

leads you're using....

[johnR]

I suggest the best compromise would be a limited mileage for cars eligible for exemption from MOT, but an opt-out provision that would allow classic daily drivers covering more miles to carry on having the MOT?

Maybe a five year MOT for lower mileage cars?

JohnR

[b_sdaddy]

I suggest the best compromise would be a limited mileage for cars eligible for exemption from MOT, but an opt-out provision that would allow classic daily drivers covering more miles to carry on having the MOT?

Maybe a five year MOT for lower mileage cars?

JohnR

and as per my first post, here in Belgium, I have opted out of the 'classic car' thing. I gain no financial, TAX benefit and my mini is not subject to a poor, sub-standard 'classic car' MOT test. It's just a car, but an old one at that! (38)

[Cooperman]

If limited mileage were to be limited to 1000 miles/annum it would put a virtual stop to historic rallying. To do a championship year in the HRCR Road Rally Championship means around 2000 miles all included, plus any non-trailered driving to and from the start/finish venues.

An event like 'le Jog' involves considerably more than 1000 miles of driving, more like 2000 miles if driving to Lands End and back from John 'o Groats is included.

Now that would be sad.

[slpj24]

I suggest the best compromise would be a limited mileage for cars eligible for exemption from MOT, but an opt-out provision that would allow classic daily drivers covering more miles to carry on having the MOT?

Maybe a five year MOT for lower mileage cars?

JohnR

 

Yup, I agree John R. that would be ok. But unfortuantely that's not on offer 

 

And while it's very interesting to debate all kind of options, other than than those being proposed, and how it works in other countries,  -- and it is interesting --- it doesn't help to get people in the UK engaged and responding to the HMG proposals.

 

A friend of mine has an MGA. He's been trying to get this debate going on an MGA borad. Not one single response. I just don't think enough people are aware of all this, or maybe they simply don't care.

 

It's only be people in the uk responding, that we have any hope of influencing it. And even that may be a long shot, given how gov't frequentily ignores the general public.

 

As regards the likely restrictions, that will form part and parcel of an mot exemption. ---  Mileage restrictions will be bad enough, but as I've pointed out, for those failing a new test for 'vehicle of historic interest', the mildest other consequence could be loss of age related plate, and the worst would be loss of registration completely.

 

Clock's ticking. Last chance to object to anything you don't want is ------ 2nd November 2017 11:45pm.

[slpj24]

Going back to automatic registration as historic vehicle, I've just looked back at the previous log books (I have copies) for one of my 1960s cars.

 

In 1992, it was still plg.

 

Then in 1999 I got, without requesting it, a new logbook (V5), and it already says class "Historic vehicle", and i certainly didn't request the change.

 

I hadn't realised this came in that long ago. So this has been brewing for at least 17 years.

 

I have no idea if this means I'm completely safe from reinspection, because it was never inspected in the first place. There is a suggestion that pre-1988 changes won't be taken into consideration. But am I now going to have to tell them about every change I've made, however small, since 1988?

Edited by slpj24, 10 October 2016 - 12:19 PM.

[Ethel]

That'd be those unintended consequences. Who wouldn't have accepted a gift of a free tax disc if there were no strings attached? It'd be interesting to dig out the original statute to see what it said about qualifying and applying.

 

It does make the "DVLA points system" more suitable than any new criterion. If you fail to satisfy that, you're already in position of your V5 under false pretences.

[Archived2]

I had a good read through the proposals.

Once the car turns 40 the gov will buy your car a cake. That cake must be shared with the car by putting it slowly into the air intake with the engine at 3000 revs.

There's no opt out for this and this must be done at a DVSA test station under strict guidelines. If your car doesn't enjoy the cake then you'll be subject to a full IVA inspection!
That IVA inspection will consider the age of the car but will issue you with a brand new reg (2016 currently) and exempt you from mots for three years and give you 1000 shares in Blockbusters.

Doesn't seem too bad to me?

[THE ANORAK]

im wondering how strict they will be with the modifications. for example, would upgrading your mini city with standard rover cooper wheels and trim be classed as a modification ??? (change the grille, add some stickers etc)

 

EDIT: to be honest i cant see how they are gonna find anyone who will know 100% what its factory spec trim and what is not !!!

Edited by THE ANORAK, 10 October 2016 - 04:22 PM.

[1984mini25]

im wondering how strict they will be with the modifications. for example, would upgrading your mini city with standard rover cooper wheels and trim be classed as a modification ??? (change the grille, add some stickers etc)

 

EDIT: to be honest i cant see how they are gonna find anyone who will know 100% what its factory spec trim and what is not !!!

 

Even as something as basic, as changing the sealed beam headlamps to halogens is a modification. It just depends upon just how picky they want to be.

[Cooperman]

Don'the look at this from a purely classic Mini point of view. Modifications will only be major non-period things. Imagine the DVLA or VOSA trying to establish what is standard on, say, a 1939 Hillman Minx or a 1958 Standard Vanguard. Are they really going to spend literally millions on trying to find model-specific data for literally every car ever produced of which one or more is registered in the UK? Of course they won't.
What will be considered modifications are things like completely different engines, glass-fibre wings, seriously oversized wheels, different type of suspension and turbocharger (when never fitted as original). This type of mod may mean the car is no longer a true vehicle of historic significance or whatever it is to be called.
It is hot-rods and hybrids which will suffer, but they can always be put back to period modified.

This is what the probably regulations will say (this from the FBHVC):

 

Was manufactured more than 30 years ago

Is maintained by use of replacement parts which reproduce the historic components of the vehicle

Has not sustained any change in the technical characteristics of its main components such as engine, brakes, steering or suspension

Has not been changed in its appearance

 

If you take a look at the vehicle homologation papers for the Mini you may be surprise at what is considered standard. Only around post-1960 cars have homologation papers though. Now it doesn't say that changes are not permitted, simply that the technical characteristics of the main components must not have been changed. Thus a rear wheel drive conversion would not be permissible, nor would air suspension or a power plant of different make or type. If the appearance must not be changed I would take this to mean that a huge rear spoiler would not be 'historic', nor would ultra-wide wheels or a huge air scoop on the bonnet (as seen recently on a Mk.2 Ford Zephyr with a V8 engine and 8" wide wheels!).

Personally I don't see how it could be possible to enforce or monitor annual mileage done within the UK.

Edited by Cooperman, 10 October 2016 - 08:42 PM.

[slpj24]

If you are forced to go though an IVA after failing  the new VHI test, what exactly does that involve?

 

I've read that IVA comes in two flavours. IVA normal and B-IVA. Where B is for basic. I assume basic means easier, and is intended for existing vehicles rather then new build vehicles.

 

But as yet, I'm yet to dedicate myself to reading through the whole document that explains IVA.

 

Can anyone here give me a simplified dummy's guide to IVA, esp B-IVA?

[Spider]

Don'the look at this from a purely classic Mini point of view. Modifications will only be major non-period things. Imagine the DVLA or VOSA trying to establish what is standard on, say, a 1939 Hillman Minx or a 1958 Standard Vanguard. Are they really going to spend literally millions on trying to find model-specific data for literally every car ever produced of which one or more is registered in the UK? Of course they won't.

 

I can't speak for your representatives in the UK, but don't be at all surprised if they do have a list and know what's standard and what's not. Certainly in these parts, our Registration Authorities are extraordinarily well clued up and they guys reading and interpreting that to a car under examination are pretty good with that info. They do get it wrong from time to time, but on the whole, they know.

[mab01uk]

I believe in Germany the TUV tests and approvals already check all modified cars so presumably it is possibe to enforce similar checks on modified classic cars here in the UK if there is the will to do it...?

 

Quote:

"TUV is the testing body responsible for safety testing (for a whole range of products, not just cars and bikes). There are two aspects of interest. First, German vehicles must pass a TUV test (like the British MOT, but much tougher). Second, parts sold to be fitted to German cars must themselves be tested and get a TUV certificate.

For German cars It is already the case that you your car's TUV papers must show that all modifications were made with TUV-approved parts and that the safety of the installation has been approved by a TUV inspector.

When TUV inspectors and police make checks you are required to produce a TUV certificate which lists all the modifications made to the car. If you have unapproved modifications the police may prosecute.

If you have unapproved parts on a German car, and do not have the correct papers, you should arrange for a TUV inspector to carry out a Einzelabnahme inspection which (if it passes) will then certify that the parts and fitting are safe. If you have parts with ABE (Allgemeine Betriebs Erlaubnis) or Teile Gutachten papers, then the inspector can do a simplified inspection looking purely at the installation."

Edited by mab01uk, 11 October 2016 - 11:47 AM.