33 replies to this topic

[M111OWW]

Just been reading up on this thread..
Quick question, and sorry if it sounds silly...but, when toe in/out is mentioned, is it per wheel....or.....total over both??

So for rear toe in, the figure above says 1/16th, is that per wheel or total....so 1/32 each wheel to make up a total of 1/16

And, when Caster is mentioned as 3 to 3.5 degrees, over what steering angle change? I.e measured as one complete turn of the steering wheel in each direction then record camber change..

Only asking as I think the suspension geo settings my car is set to is giving too much caster, it is a little unstable if swerving to avoid something in the road but is fine everywhere else (feeling of it wanting to 'tuck under')
And a little too much rear toe in, mine is 3.2mm total..

Edited by M111OWW, 13 January 2017 - 04:39 PM.

[Spider]

The Toe Measurements are a total, so, where listed as 1/8", that's 1/16" per side.

[M111OWW]

The suspension settings are quite critical on the classic Mini, especially the rear settings.
 
Whether or not your rear brackets are adjustable will be easy to see. If they have adjustment there will be small fittings for screw adjustment. if the brackets are plain faced, then they are not adjustable, but can be set more correctly.
 
The ideal settings for a 'not quite so slow road Mini' are generally as follows:
 
Front;  0.5 to 1.5 degree negative camber, which can be achieved with either different lower arms or offset lower arm inner bushes.
3 to 3.5 degrees caster which can be achieved with adjustable tie-bars.
1mm to 2 mm toe-out
 
Rear:  zero to 0,5 degrees negative camber
1 mm to 2 mm toe-in
This can be achieved either with adjustable brackets or by filing the hole in the bracket forwards and/or upwards until the correct settings are achieved, then welding on a large washer to maintain the settings. If there is too much toe-in on the rear the brackets need to be shimmed away from the sub-frame mating face.
 
Accurate measurements are critical. When done both road-holding and handling will be much improved.
 
Set the car to standard ride height, not lowered for best overall performance on the normal roads.
 
Note that these settings do not necessarily apply with the 13" wheels/175 section width tyres when the camber for the front should be no more than 1 degree neg maximum and 0.25 degrees neg on the rear camber.

So that's 1 to 2mm rear toe in total then....0.5 to 1mm each wheel??

Edited by M111OWW, 13 January 2017 - 05:35 PM.

[icklemini]

Yup 1mm on each rear wheel... dead easy to make a mess of this depending on the equipment being used...

Ideally need gauges that measure individual toe... sadly the dunlop ones only measure total toe...

people try using string.. which on a mini needs the front and rear subframes to be perfectly aligned (which of course they arent)

[M111OWW]

Right...
Basically then, I've made a bit of a boo boo setting up the geo..back to the drawing board!
Drop the caster to 3 degrees, maybe a touch less camber, say 1 degree neg on the front, 0.25 neg rear and reduce the rear toe down to 2mm total...

Then see if there is any improvement in the 'lane change' stability..

It's got the red dot cones and Gaz dampers all round, lower ride height, alloy front sub mounts and rear poly..
Alignment is pretty much bang on between subframes..

Cornering is and general road manners are ok, my biggest bug bear is it always wanting to lift and spin up the unloaded front wheels if you get a bit giggy on roundabouts!

Edited by M111OWW, 14 January 2017 - 08:11 AM.

[icklemini]

Castor is measured over a 40 deg arc of the wheel...
Ie turn the wheel.being measured 20 degs 'in'... zero your castor gauge.. then turn the wheel to 20 degs 'out" and then read off the castor...

This 20 degs movement is close enough to one revolution of the steering wheel.

Castor needs to be exactly the same on both sides to avoid weird handling...

[Hpal]

Right...
Basically then, I've made a bit of a boo boo setting up the geo..back to the drawing board!
Drop the caster to 3 degrees, maybe a touch less camber, say 1 degree neg on the front, 0.25 neg rear and reduce the rear toe down to 2mm total...

Then see if there is any improvement in the 'lane change' stability..

It's got the red dot cones and Gaz dampers all round, lower ride height, alloy front sub mounts and rear poly..
Alignment is pretty much bang on between subframes..

Cornering is and general road manners are ok, my biggest bug bear is it always wanting to lift and spin up the unloaded front wheels if you get a bit giggy on roundabouts!

Hi mate, I know this was a few years ago now, but how did those setting go for you? I'm string aligning my mini and I've had some weird behaviour on the road especially when putting the foot down to overtake, it wants to pull one way or the other and is very scary.

[nicklouse]

 

Right...
Basically then, I've made a bit of a boo boo setting up the geo..back to the drawing board!
Drop the caster to 3 degrees, maybe a touch less camber, say 1 degree neg on the front, 0.25 neg rear and reduce the rear toe down to 2mm total...

Then see if there is any improvement in the 'lane change' stability..

It's got the red dot cones and Gaz dampers all round, lower ride height, alloy front sub mounts and rear poly..
Alignment is pretty much bang on between subframes..

Cornering is and general road manners are ok, my biggest bug bear is it always wanting to lift and spin up the unloaded front wheels if you get a bit giggy on roundabouts!

Hi mate, I know this was a few years ago now, but how did those setting go for you? I'm string aligning my mini and I've had some weird behaviour on the road especially when putting the foot down to overtake, it wants to pull one way or the other and is very scary.

 

Corner weights. Sort it.

[Hpal]

 

Corner weights. Sort it.

 

 

Awesome, is there an easy way? Can I just get the ride heights good or is there more to it?

[nicklouse]

 

 

Corner weights. Sort it.

 

 

Awesome, is there an easy way? Can I just get the ride heights good or is there more to it?

 

More to it.  You can have equal ride heights but have totally differing corner weights giving differing grip on the wheels.

[Allrounder]

Should give you a idea. I made a tool with some old bathroom scales.


https://www.calverst...p-steer-basics/


Corner weights. Sort it.

Awesome, is there an easy way? Can I just get the ride heights good or is there more to it?

[Hpal]

Awesome info, I adjusted the hi-lo's to even the corner weights out enough without any sort of scales, I used my judgement. I set the rear camber to -0.25 deg and 2mm toe in and locked them there. I set the front to 3.5 caster, -0.75 camber, and 3mm toe out. Also raised it a bit from what it was, it now drives like a dream, predictable, responsive, no dangerous swerving like before and tracks dead straight on the road. I will make a hydraulic corner weight scale soon to double check it and tweak it all up . But I'm very happy for now.

[stuart bowes]

The suspension settings are quite critical on the classic Mini, especially the rear settings.

 

Whether or not your rear brackets are adjustable will be easy to see. If they have adjustment there will be small fittings for screw adjustment. if the brackets are plain faced, then they are not adjustable, but can be set more correctly.

 

The ideal settings for a 'not quite so slow road Mini' are generally as follows:

 

Front;  0.5 to 1.5 degree negative camber, which can be achieved with either different lower arms or offset lower arm inner bushes.

3 to 3.5 degrees caster which can be achieved with adjustable tie-bars.

1mm to 2 mm toe-out

 

Rear:  zero to 0,5 degrees negative camber

1 mm to 2 mm toe-in

This can be achieved either with adjustable brackets or by filing the hole in the bracket forwards and/or upwards until the correct settings are achieved, then welding on a large washer to maintain the settings. If there is too much toe-in on the rear the brackets need to be shimmed away from the sub-frame mating face.

 

Accurate measurements are critical. When done both road-holding and handling will be much improved.

 

Set the car to standard ride height, not lowered for best overall performance on the normal roads.

 

Note that these settings do not necessarily apply with the 13" wheels/175 section width tyres when the camber for the front should be no more than 1 degree neg maximum and 0.25 degrees neg on the rear camber.

 

sorry for the revival but this seems to be the go-to info for best alignment

 

is it possible to translate mm's on the front/rear toe to degrees please, i.e. what I would see on the hunter machine, 

 

thanks 

[imack]

Conversion from my prehistoric Dunlop tracking gauge.

Attached Files

•  20240704_200413.jpg   49.32K   10 downloads

Edited by imack, 04 July 2024 - 07:13 PM.

[stuart bowes]

I starting working it out with basic trig, 2mm = 1mm per wheel, work that back to the angle

 

then I realised, is this measured at the outer extreme of the tyre, or at the rim, was that a recommendation for 10" or 12" (mine are 12)

 

I'm getting 0° 22'  based on 1mm at 6" (12" wheel) have I done that right?  (probably not lol)

Edited by stuart bowes, 04 July 2024 - 07:34 PM.