32 replies to this topic

[MRA]

Fordy,

 

If you are running close to standard engine spec then you could decoke the cylinder head and regrind the valves with very little equipment needed (just a valve spring compressor and a stick to twirl the valves). Total cost about £25, plus yout time.

 

If it's not already converted to unleaded and you are not doing big mileage, then the alternative is to use Castrol Valvemaster when you refill the petrol tank, works out at a few pence per mile.

Plus a set of gaskets, new oil and filter ... add another £30 tot hat bill.

 

Unleaded can be up to £160 for 4 valve seats.

Edited by MRA, 04 March 2016 - 09:13 PM.

[Fordy]

The 276 will work ok with a standard head but a slightly modified head will make it work better, a 286 will not reach it's true potential with a standard head...  Same goes for exhaust system, although a 276 on a standard exhaust will be a fair way down on it's true potential and a 286 will be rubbish to drive and not produce the goods...

 

Both will require a modified distributor or better still an aftermarket ECU

 

It is like cooking, you go to a pizzaria and have topping on bread, you would probably be slightly annoyed at getting a beef steak on pizza bread as it doesn't really go together too well...

 

Organise how much you want to spend, then decide how much you can actually spend, get a quote for 5 hours on a rolling road, as this should get it tuned up pretty close, it won't win prizes for dyno tune but it will get you a much more reliable engine for your money.

 

Then make a list of what engine parts you need, don't forget oil and filter, and then go about costing it up you will then in all probability have to carve stuff off your list to make it fit your budget, once done put you list up here to see if anything is missing

 

But just fitting a new cam is going to end in tears, at this stage you either need to keep your engine running or perform a full strip and rebuild, using ALL new soft parts and possibly quite a few core parts.... reground crank, rebored block etc

 

I see what you are saying. I have been doing some reading through on here about the 286 cam and from what I have read with the amount of work, cost, benefit, drive of the cam it doesn't sound like what I am looking for in terms of cost and performance. Like I said earlier looking to build fast road, more acceleration than anything.

 

Which brings me onto the 276 when reading through I have seen a lot more positive points about this cam, which may be more suited?

 

I currently have the engine completely stripped down as I purchased it as an unfinished project, so in terms of upgrades I would rather do them now than build up and look to upgrade at a later stage. So will be replacing soft parts, reground crank, cylinder already been honed.

 

Not in a major rush to get the project complete as not currently got the room to store the car itself hence why I have purchased the engine/gearbox first to build up, and then find the car to put her in. So when it comes to a budget I cant say I have a nailed on figure which I am looking to work it, but looking to use people on here to advice and guide/mentor me through the process.

[Carlos W]

There are other options apart from Kent cams. Have a look at the ACD RS or RS+ fantastic torque figures.

[MRA]

 

The 276 will work ok with a standard head but a slightly modified head will make it work better, a 286 will not reach it's true potential with a standard head...  Same goes for exhaust system, although a 276 on a standard exhaust will be a fair way down on it's true potential and a 286 will be rubbish to drive and not produce the goods...

 

Both will require a modified distributor or better still an aftermarket ECU

 

It is like cooking, you go to a pizzaria and have topping on bread, you would probably be slightly annoyed at getting a beef steak on pizza bread as it doesn't really go together too well...

 

Organise how much you want to spend, then decide how much you can actually spend, get a quote for 5 hours on a rolling road, as this should get it tuned up pretty close, it won't win prizes for dyno tune but it will get you a much more reliable engine for your money.

 

Then make a list of what engine parts you need, don't forget oil and filter, and then go about costing it up you will then in all probability have to carve stuff off your list to make it fit your budget, once done put you list up here to see if anything is missing

 

But just fitting a new cam is going to end in tears, at this stage you either need to keep your engine running or perform a full strip and rebuild, using ALL new soft parts and possibly quite a few core parts.... reground crank, rebored block etc

 

I see what you are saying. I have been doing some reading through on here about the 286 cam and from what I have read with the amount of work, cost, benefit, drive of the cam it doesn't sound like what I am looking for in terms of cost and performance. Like I said earlier looking to build fast road, more acceleration than anything.

 

Which brings me onto the 276 when reading through I have seen a lot more positive points about this cam, which may be more suited?

 

I currently have the engine completely stripped down as I purchased it as an unfinished project, so in terms of upgrades I would rather do them now than build up and look to upgrade at a later stage. So will be replacing soft parts, reground crank, cylinder already been honed.

 

Not in a major rush to get the project complete as not currently got the room to store the car itself hence why I have purchased the engine/gearbox first to build up, and then find the car to put her in. So when it comes to a budget I cant say I have a nailed on figure which I am looking to work it, but looking to use people on here to advice and guide/mentor me through the process.

 

 

You mention the bores have been honed ?  what pistons have you got ?  because this will dictate to a certain extent what cam to go for, ie if you have standard cheapo pistons keep away from the 286... 

 

The 276 offers a more refined engine than one fitted with a 286, however I much prefer the 286 for fun, it revs higher and has that kick in the pants as it comes on cam that the 276 doesn't have, however the low and mid range torque of a well set up engine with a 276 or equivalent will often win at the traffic lights derby.   but then anything faster than that and the 286 should pull ahead, once it has found the grip.

[Fordy]

 

 

You mention the bores have been honed ?  what pistons have you got ?  because this will dictate to a certain extent what cam to go for, ie if you have standard cheapo pistons keep away from the 286... 

 

The 276 offers a more refined engine than one fitted with a 286, however I much prefer the 286 for fun, it revs higher and has that kick in the pants as it comes on cam that the 276 doesn't have, however the low and mid range torque of a well set up engine with a 276 or equivalent will often win at the traffic lights derby.   but then anything faster than that and the 286 should pull ahead, once it has found the grip.

 

 

Yes the pistons have the identification of 20832 L8 on them, guessing they are the standard ones....

 

That is what i would be loking for, quick off the mark and with a good sound. So would the 276 or an equivalent cam be the better choice out of the two in terms of cost and modifications/upgrdes required to other parts on the engine, such as would most the standard parts be ok with the 276 cam?

[Fordy]

There are other options apart from Kent cams. Have a look at the ACD RS or RS+ fantastic torque figures.

 

Where abouts can I look at these? And the torque figures? 

 

Is the ACD RS a 276 equivalent, and the RS+ a 286 equivalent?

[MRA]

 

 

 

You mention the bores have been honed ?  what pistons have you got ?  because this will dictate to a certain extent what cam to go for, ie if you have standard cheapo pistons keep away from the 286... 

 

The 276 offers a more refined engine than one fitted with a 286, however I much prefer the 286 for fun, it revs higher and has that kick in the pants as it comes on cam that the 276 doesn't have, however the low and mid range torque of a well set up engine with a 276 or equivalent will often win at the traffic lights derby.   but then anything faster than that and the 286 should pull ahead, once it has found the grip.

 

 

Yes the pistons have the identification of 20832 L8 on them, guessing they are the standard ones....

 

That is what i would be loking for, quick off the mark and with a good sound. So would the 276 or an equivalent cam be the better choice out of the two in terms of cost and modifications/upgrdes required to other parts on the engine, such as would most the standard parts be ok with the 276 cam?

 

Ok the pistons would of been a good piston, they are early MG Metro pistons, however you mentioned honing the block this will mean you now have too much piston to bore clearance for them to work.

[Fordy]

 

 

 

 

You mention the bores have been honed ?  what pistons have you got ?  because this will dictate to a certain extent what cam to go for, ie if you have standard cheapo pistons keep away from the 286... 

 

The 276 offers a more refined engine than one fitted with a 286, however I much prefer the 286 for fun, it revs higher and has that kick in the pants as it comes on cam that the 276 doesn't have, however the low and mid range torque of a well set up engine with a 276 or equivalent will often win at the traffic lights derby.   but then anything faster than that and the 286 should pull ahead, once it has found the grip.

 

 

Yes the pistons have the identification of 20832 L8 on them, guessing they are the standard ones....

 

That is what i would be loking for, quick off the mark and with a good sound. So would the 276 or an equivalent cam be the better choice out of the two in terms of cost and modifications/upgrdes required to other parts on the engine, such as would most the standard parts be ok with the 276 cam?

 

Ok the pistons would of been a good piston, they are early MG Metro pistons, however you mentioned honing the block this will mean you now have too much piston to bore clearance for them to work.

 

 

Yes I got told when I picked up the engine that the block had been honed, I have measured the cylinder diameter since and measures to the standard diameter of a 1275. So from what you're saying I would need to get new pistons?

[MRA]

 

 

 

 

 

You mention the bores have been honed ?  what pistons have you got ?  because this will dictate to a certain extent what cam to go for, ie if you have standard cheapo pistons keep away from the 286... 

 

The 276 offers a more refined engine than one fitted with a 286, however I much prefer the 286 for fun, it revs higher and has that kick in the pants as it comes on cam that the 276 doesn't have, however the low and mid range torque of a well set up engine with a 276 or equivalent will often win at the traffic lights derby.   but then anything faster than that and the 286 should pull ahead, once it has found the grip.

 

 

Yes the pistons have the identification of 20832 L8 on them, guessing they are the standard ones....

 

That is what i would be loking for, quick off the mark and with a good sound. So would the 276 or an equivalent cam be the better choice out of the two in terms of cost and modifications/upgrdes required to other parts on the engine, such as would most the standard parts be ok with the 276 cam?

 

Ok the pistons would of been a good piston, they are early MG Metro pistons, however you mentioned honing the block this will mean you now have too much piston to bore clearance for them to work.

 

 

Yes I got told when I picked up the engine that the block had been honed, I have measured the cylinder diameter since and measures to the standard diameter of a 1275. So from what you're saying I would need to get new pistons?

 

What I am saying is that from experience standard pistons will not fit a standard block that has then been further honed, unfortunately I feel that the person selling the engine has possibly mistaken honing with glaze busting which is not honing.

 

measuring the bore means little, what you need to do is measure the bore and compare it to the piston diameter, not forgetting that pistons are not only oval but also tapered larger to the skirt.

 

But how did you measure the bore ? what with ??

[Fordy]

 
You mention the bores have been honed ?  what pistons have you got ?  because this will dictate to a certain extent what cam to go for, ie if you have standard cheapo pistons keep away from the 286... 
 
The 276 offers a more refined engine than one fitted with a 286, however I much prefer the 286 for fun, it revs higher and has that kick in the pants as it comes on cam that the 276 doesn't have, however the low and mid range torque of a well set up engine with a 276 or equivalent will often win at the traffic lights derby.   but then anything faster than that and the 286 should pull ahead, once it has found the grip.

 
Yes the pistons have the identification of 20832 L8 on them, guessing they are the standard ones....
 
That is what i would be loking for, quick off the mark and with a good sound. So would the 276 or an equivalent cam be the better choice out of the two in terms of cost and modifications/upgrdes required to other parts on the engine, such as would most the standard parts be ok with the 276 cam?

Ok the pistons would of been a good piston, they are early MG Metro pistons, however you mentioned honing the block this will mean you now have too much piston to bore clearance for them to work.

 
Yes I got told when I picked up the engine that the block had been honed, I have measured the cylinder diameter since and measures to the standard diameter of a 1275. So from what you're saying I would need to get new pistons?

What I am saying is that from experience standard pistons will not fit a standard block that has then been further honed, unfortunately I feel that the person selling the engine has possibly mistaken honing with glaze busting which is not honing.
 
measuring the bore means little, what you need to do is measure the bore and compare it to the piston diameter, not forgetting that pistons are not only oval but also tapered larger to the skirt.
 
But how did you measure the bore ? what with ??

What is the difference between honing and glaze busting? And how can I tell?

What difference between bore and piston can there be?

And using the internal of the vernier caliper (which I know is not the 100% correct tool)

[gazza82]

Put all the parts and prices in a spreadsheet and scare yourself witless ... Especially if you have to pay someone else to do the work too ...

[MRA]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
You mention the bores have been honed ?  what pistons have you got ?  because this will dictate to a certain extent what cam to go for, ie if you have standard cheapo pistons keep away from the 286... 
 
The 276 offers a more refined engine than one fitted with a 286, however I much prefer the 286 for fun, it revs higher and has that kick in the pants as it comes on cam that the 276 doesn't have, however the low and mid range torque of a well set up engine with a 276 or equivalent will often win at the traffic lights derby.   but then anything faster than that and the 286 should pull ahead, once it has found the grip.

 
Yes the pistons have the identification of 20832 L8 on them, guessing they are the standard ones....
 
That is what i would be loking for, quick off the mark and with a good sound. So would the 276 or an equivalent cam be the better choice out of the two in terms of cost and modifications/upgrdes required to other parts on the engine, such as would most the standard parts be ok with the 276 cam?

Ok the pistons would of been a good piston, they are early MG Metro pistons, however you mentioned honing the block this will mean you now have too much piston to bore clearance for them to work.

 
Yes I got told when I picked up the engine that the block had been honed, I have measured the cylinder diameter since and measures to the standard diameter of a 1275. So from what you're saying I would need to get new pistons?

What I am saying is that from experience standard pistons will not fit a standard block that has then been further honed, unfortunately I feel that the person selling the engine has possibly mistaken honing with glaze busting which is not honing.
 
measuring the bore means little, what you need to do is measure the bore and compare it to the piston diameter, not forgetting that pistons are not only oval but also tapered larger to the skirt.
 
But how did you measure the bore ? what with ??

What is the difference between honing and glaze busting? And how can I tell?

What difference between bore and piston can there be?

And using the internal of the vernier caliper (which I know is not the 100% correct tool)

 

 

Don't you swear at me.... lol 

 

No really, honing is a precise and very accurate method of making a hole round whilst also creating a surface that holds oil for piston lubrication, glaze busting is a bodge to help an ailing engine, it has no accuracy and can at best only straighten an already honed bore that has wear, it will NOT correct for any out of roundness, a honing tool will correct for out of roundness and also maintain straightness within very tight tolerances.

 

Also trying to measure a bore with a vernier is not even close to being a correct tool, it has too few decimal places and has the wrong contact type, a bore micrometer will have the correct contact points but normally have 3 points at 120 degrees or better at odd degrees, then there is the bore gauge, which as a minimum requires a setting ring close to your bore requirements, but if a bore gauge is used you can run it up and down the bore and at different points around the bore to check for taper, barrelling etc etc.

[Fordy]

Don't you swear at me.... lol 
 
No really, honing is a precise and very accurate method of making a hole round whilst also creating a surface that holds oil for piston lubrication, glaze busting is a bodge to help an ailing engine, it has no accuracy and can at best only straighten an already honed bore that has wear, it will NOT correct for any out of roundness, a honing tool will correct for out of roundness and also maintain straightness within very tight tolerances.
 
Also trying to measure a bore with a vernier is not even close to being a correct tool, it has too few decimal places and has the wrong contact type, a bore micrometer will have the correct contact points but normally have 3 points at 120 degrees or better at odd degrees, then there is the bore gauge, which as a minimum requires a setting ring close to your bore requirements, but if a bore gauge is used you can run it up and down the bore and at different points around the bore to check for taper, barrelling etc etc.
 

 
Right I see, so Im guessing I'll only have more of an idea if its been honed or glazed busted if I was to use a bore gauge which would highlight any tapering or barrelling, and a bore micrometer to know the exact bore diameter. This is something to have some further consideration I suppose in terms of boring out the engine to a larger diameter if I do require new pistons to the ones I currently have.....
 
Back to the cylinder head I am going to knock up a spreadsheet over the weekend of parts and prices, then post on here. Are more expensive valves i.e Rimflow valves, worth the extra cash compared to the cheaper alternatives or are the just a 'brand' name valve which adds on that extra price? And with loking to modify the cylinder head would I need to upgrade to competition valves or Rimflo's?

Also valve guides, at what stage of modification to the head di you need to upgrade th valve guides to bronze alternatives?

Edited by Fordy, 05 March 2016 - 10:08 AM.

[Fordy]

Put all the parts and prices in a spreadsheet and scare yourself witless ... Especially if you have to pay someone else to do the work too ...

 

I am looking at doing this over the weekend. I shall do most of the work myself, just not got the tooling or expertise to modify the cylinder head, and to do a crank regrind.

[MRA]

 

Don't you swear at me.... lol 
 
No really, honing is a precise and very accurate method of making a hole round whilst also creating a surface that holds oil for piston lubrication, glaze busting is a bodge to help an ailing engine, it has no accuracy and can at best only straighten an already honed bore that has wear, it will NOT correct for any out of roundness, a honing tool will correct for out of roundness and also maintain straightness within very tight tolerances.
 
Also trying to measure a bore with a vernier is not even close to being a correct tool, it has too few decimal places and has the wrong contact type, a bore micrometer will have the correct contact points but normally have 3 points at 120 degrees or better at odd degrees, then there is the bore gauge, which as a minimum requires a setting ring close to your bore requirements, but if a bore gauge is used you can run it up and down the bore and at different points around the bore to check for taper, barrelling etc etc.
 

 
Right I see, so Im guessing I'll only have more of an idea if its been honed or glazed busted if I was to use a bore gauge which would highlight any tapering or barrelling, and a bore micrometer to know the exact bore diameter. This is something to have some further consideration I suppose in terms of boring out the engine to a larger diameter if I do require new pistons to the ones I currently have.....
 
Back to the cylinder head I am going to knock up a spreadsheet over the weekend of parts and prices, then post on here. Are more expensive valves i.e Rimflow valves, worth the extra cash compared to the cheaper alternatives or are the just a 'brand' name valve which adds on that extra price? And with loking to modify the cylinder head would I need to upgrade to competition valves or Rimflo's?

Also valve guides, at what stage of modification to the head di you need to upgrade th valve guides to bronze alternatives?

 

Valves are available in different qualities and different prices, the best on the market for Mini are Paul Ivey's valves, he is tied in with another company that makes his valves, Rimflow are his valves and the concept is very good, the quality is excellent, but to be efficient they need to be run with a high enough CR and a good enough spark to keep the reversal groove clean, you will need to spend the money on an ECU so as to get the best from the,

 

There are excellent valves available and unless you choose a 286 or higher spec cam you won't really need them to be too exotic.

 

Valve guides are down to type of use and valve stem material, but for your engine I would choose valves that are a good quality but work with cast iron guides, as they are cheaper (not a massive amount) but more importantly last longer.

 

Competition valves, are just a good quality valve that can withstand higher speeds..

 

A valve has to start, stop. start, stop, and that is just one open and close, the faster the engine revs the faster and more times per second the valve has to open and close, inertial forces go through the roof, so what engine speed are you aiming for ?

 

Rimflow = competition, it is just a special head machining operation that adds a groove around the top face of the valve to aid flow.