42 replies to this topic

[MacGyver]

At least it's nothing bad!
Just to ad, clean well and put some copper grease in the hole (or something like that) before you fit the cup back in.

[sonikk4]

We all make mistakes, it's human so don't punch yourself too hard.

[Minivabnman]

I was having problems with my suspension so decided to do a complete overhaul, new joints and donuts,

 

when fitting the donuts that I had in the garage had a sticker on them with a "green dot", which would suggest standard suspension, but on further investigation inside the rubber there was two little " red dots" does this mean that they have been mixed up at the supplier and are "Red Dot " rubbers

 

 

 

 

Davy

[Dusky]

Dont think so. Mine have the red dots as well

[Spider]

Nah, it's some internal code they use at manufacture. The part number tells you what it is.

 

I recently bought about a dozen cones and they had various marking inside them, some even like yours.

[tiger99]

Ignore the bad advice and don't put copper grease in the hole as it is likely to damage the nylon cup. It will also make it difficult to seat the cup as it will tend to seal in the air pressure.

The base of the hole MUST be inspected carefully, and if the ball end has been wearing it's way into the arm, the top arm is scrap and must be replaced. An arm costs about 50 times as much as a knuckle joint so the economics of not changing the front and rear knuckles every 40k miles make no sense.

There is a serious safety problem if wear is ignored in this area. It ends with the ball so deeply embedded in the arm that it jams and shears off, causing instant suspension collapse. The bump stop is likely to fail under the extreme load, followed by one of the ball joints shearing and complete loss of control. People have been killed.

[sonikk4]

Ignore the bad advice and don't put copper grease in the hole as it is likely to damage the nylon cup. It will also make it difficult to seat the cup as it will tend to seal in the air pressure.

The base of the hole MUST be inspected carefully, and if the ball end has been wearing it's way into the arm, the top arm is scrap and must be replaced. An arm costs about 50 times as much as a knuckle joint so the economics of not changing the front and rear knuckles every 40k miles make no sense.

There is a serious safety problem if wear is ignored in this area. It ends with the ball so deeply embedded in the arm that it jams and shears off, causing instant suspension collapse. The bump stop is likely to fail under the extreme load, followed by one of the ball joints shearing and complete loss of control. People have been killed.

 

People have been killed!!!! That is an extreme statement to make without proof.

 

I would ask ALL members please think about what you write and making a statement like the above.

 

Yes we have seen posts on here with cars that have had ball joint failure and its not something you would want to happen. An actual arm failing is something else and would have had to been so poorly maintained that there would have been other issues arising. Anyway i digress, please do use the correct lubricants suitable for the task.

[1984mini25]

The base of the hole MUST be inspected carefully, and if the ball end has been wearing it's way into the arm, the top arm is scrap and must be replaced. An arm costs about 50 times as much as a knuckle joint so the economics of not changing the front and rear knuckles every 40k miles make no sense.
 

 

With the shockingly bad quality of the rubber knuckle joints covers, you'd be lucky to get less than 4k out of them before having to change them.

[tiger99]

They used to last 40k, but there is currently a problem with rubber parts. If the rubber is good, the cup is ok for about 40k. We will have to see what happens to the rubber quality. The amount of flexing here could probably be accommodated by a different material, maybe PVC.

As to people being killed by jammed knuckle joints shearing, there were a number of reports in the 1960s and 1970s when Minis were much more common. Likewise ball joints, which led BMC/BL/Rover to increasingly emphasise the need for clearance when shimming. Also there were a number of fatalities due to steering column pinch bolts, usually involving an incompetent idiot and an improperly designed steering column drop bracket. These were disseminated via the motoring press of the day. Fatal accidents DO happen as a result of incompetent maintenance, and inevitably nowadays, defective spare parts.

Oh, and I once saw a not very old Austin 1100 crash badly, with its driver taken away by ambulance, due to the train of events caused by a CV joint failure, another thing to beware of. At least they knock first...

Edited by tiger99, 13 July 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[sonikk4]

I stand by what i say, if there were deaths caused by a specific component failing 40 or 50 years ago then that as they say is history, if there has been a fatality in the past 10 years or so then feel free to link that information to the pertinent post. AND YES ITEMS BEING FITTED INCORRECTLY COULD POTENTIALLY LEAD TO A FATAL ACCIDENT. BUT unless you have proof to back up a statement then think before you post.

 

Instead of scaremongering a more suitable statement would be if this item fails there could be serious consequences, failure to use the correct lubricant or no lubricant could lead to premature failure. The same regarding any safety critical item.

 

We have no problem on this forum identifying certain parts being maintained incorrectly could have serious issues but that is the same about anything we do with cars, modern or classic. We want to encourage our members to look after their cars and do a level of maintenance they are are happy to perform safely. Pointing them in the right direction with regards to the correct manual whether its a Haynes or workshop manual. We do not want anybody being scared about being ridiculed for doing something wrong if they ask a question on here. Remember we are not all highly skilled or qualified mechanics, some are starting their first steps on the rung of mini ownership. Scaremongering will only drive them away from owning one of our iconic cars. 

[MRA]

They used to last 40k, but there is currently a problem with rubber parts. If the rubber is good, the cup is ok for about 40k. We will have to see what happens to the rubber quality. The amount of flexing here could probably be accommodated by a different material, maybe PVC.

As to people being killed by jammed knuckle joints shearing, there were a number of reports in the 1960s and 1970s when Minis were much more common. Likewise ball joints, which led BMC/BL/Rover to increasingly emphasise the need for clearance when shimming. Also there were a number of fatalities due to steering column pinch bolts, usually involving an incompetent idiot and an improperly designed steering column drop bracket. These were disseminated via the motoring press of the day. Fatal accidents DO happen as a result of incompetent maintenance, and inevitably nowadays, defective spare parts.

Oh, and I once saw a not very old Austin 1100 crash badly, with its driver taken away by ambulance, due to the train of events caused by a CV joint failure, another thing to beware of. At least they knock first...

 

The issue was with idiots "adjusting" worn ball joints, once worn any adjustment should be done by throwing them away and lapping in new ones !   Which is even more critical today as the quality has dropped off a little with respect to the surface finish and roundness.

 

A worn suspension arm will in fact not directly cause an accident due to failure, it will and as Tiger says deaths have occurred, cause an accident due to the wheel / tyre coming into contact with the front wheel arch (wing edge) reducing the angle at which the steering wheel can be turned at. 

 

The only exceptions to this are:-

1) already have massively cut away wheel arches

2) suspension raised for rough terrain, such as rallying and or rally cross etc...

 

The knuckle joint cannot wear far enough through the top arm without the above happening first, making this method of self demise worthy of a Darwin award at the least.

 

A snapped knuckle can of course cause a nasty or fatal accident due to the sudden loss of steering as the wheel lands in the wheel arch, which will seriously reduce your ability to steer the car.

 

The steering pinch bolt is definitely a cause for concern as most people do not know how to fit them, when I made and sold my own version of the steering bracket I included fitting instructions, we were the first to do this and thankfully plenty followed our lead.

 

I have done extensive studies over the last 30+ years on the ball joints of Mini's and their failure modes, by far the largest failure point used to be 2 to 3 months after an MOT, ie "i'll just nip up your ball joints and you will get a pass"  what this does is scary in the least !  as your ball joints wear in both the top and bottom is slightly oval, you now have a "cross eyed" ball joint it binds up under certain conditions and then causes the ball part to fatigue.   nasty never adjust them just throw them away and save your own or somebody else from serious issues or worse !

Edited by MRA, 17 July 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[tiger99]

Well said! Part of the problem nowadays is that knowledge of routine Mini problems has been largely lost. There are a scary number of instances on this forum of things which have been done wrongly, including steering column spline failures. Then there is the monthly comic whose "expert", who is manifestly neither a Mini expert nor even a very basic engineer, gave very bad advice indeed about ball joints.

Coming from a safety background I see all the signs that serious accidents are becoming more likely. The way to avoid these is of course to carry out all safety critical maintenance properly. There is no part of the Mini (with the exception of the shell for those who think they can't weld) which cannot be either safely maintained at home, or removed and sent to a reconditioners, provided proper procedures are followed.

It all comes down to education, which we can do here to an extent. But everyone can help themselves by getting and reading a Haynes manual.

[MRA]

Well said! Part of the problem nowadays is that knowledge of routine Mini problems has been largely lost. There are a scary number of instances on this forum of things which have been done wrongly, including steering column spline failures. Then there is the monthly comic whose "expert", who is manifestly neither a Mini expert nor even a very basic engineer, gave very bad advice indeed about ball joints.

Coming from a safety background I see all the signs that serious accidents are becoming more likely. The way to avoid these is of course to carry out all safety critical maintenance properly. There is no part of the Mini (with the exception of the shell for those who think they can't weld) which cannot be either safely maintained at home, or removed and sent to a reconditioners, provided proper procedures are followed.

It all comes down to education, which we can do here to an extent. But everyone can help themselves by getting and reading a Haynes manual.

 

All too often bodgers will advocate their idea to be the "bees knees" what we should have is a button that gives a post a "bodgers" value, so newbies of any age can see the post for what it is, and know that it may work, but is NOT best current practice !

 

We need to stop this self perpetuating idea of the bodgers art getting quoted and re-quoted etc in following posts as the "best thing since sliced bread" !