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Diff Shimming


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#31 Spider

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 10:31 AM

 What I would like to know is why taper roller hub bearings must not be preloaded while in a diff they can be.

 

Actually, i don't know of any Hub Bearing, that are not.

 

Although the ones we use in our Minis, have a spacer, they still have preload. The front Timkens have 0.0015' and the rears 0.0012" preload (or should have).

 

In the case of our diffs, preload is necessary to keep the shaft lines between the Mainshaft and the Diff, parallel and on the same plane, otherwise the CW will ride on one edge and the Pinions will chew through. If I remember tomorrow (our time), I'll throw up some photos.



#32 tiger99

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Posted 26 June 2016 - 02:54 PM

Even more interesting! Cars I have had which are supposed to have running clearance were Rover P4, Triumph Herald, Ford 100E. Can't remember what was done with Hillman Avenger or Open Rekord D. I think the Rover had a vernier device for very fine adjustment.

In practice people just very lightly tightened up with a short spanner to settle the bearings, slackened off and tightened up again lightly with fingers, backing off to the nearest split pin hole. (2 holes at right angles). Tightening to reach the split pin hole was forbidden. I have seen several mechanics do it that way, as well as what the manuals said, and we must have been doing something right because bearing life was never a problem. Yet the same general type of bearing were routinely preloaded quite heavily until you needed a measured torque to turn them, in diffs made by the very same manufacturers.

And yet bearing catalogues invariably show that a reasonable amount of preload is permissible.

I think that maybe what we were doing years ago was wrong, a by-product of manufacturers safety worries if bearings were too tight, which is far more likely to result in sudden and complete failure of the stub axle than if they were slightly loose.

I would like to think that a lightly preloaded wheel bearing, preventing wheel wobble, was the right thing to do, but the information available is still somewhat inconsistent.

We are still not helping with the diff shimming question. I feel that this problem needs to be permanently sorted, as it does crop up rather often. I think that, if our spares suppliers were as clever as some people believe, they would see the need. A gasket that compresses to a well-defined thickness and no more (easily) is one way. Revised different side covers with a machined groove for an O ring seal are another. With O ring groove 82% of O ring cross sectional diameter in both width and depth you get metal to metal contact when bolted down and a good seal. The same principle would also work on the transfer case, which is what started me thinking about it, as shimming the idler gear is a miserable job, which probably is done badly most of the time.

A lot of the old knowledge is almost extinct, and if we want to keep using Minis the community at large needs to take a careful look a the problems we face, in this case inconsistent gasket thickness, and design a way around them. NC machining is relatively cheap nowadays and I don't see why some judicious modifications can not be applied.

#33 MontpellierVanMan

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 08:09 AM

GEOMETRY%2010.2_zpsjvo2u2pg.jpg

 

Until I've seen the bump-steer plots of their cars, through full suspension travel and on both sides, I'm inclined to think most Mini-drivers who complain about torque steer are actually dreaming.

 

Bump%20Steer%20Plots%20001_zpsqei8xhel.j

 

GEOMETRY%2011_zpsvfceyjz3.jpg

 

GEOMETRY%209_zpsf6fd5jgk.jpg

 

GEOMETRY%2026_zpsiug6a30l.jpg

 

This Mini has no bump-steer, no torque-steer, and the steering is anything but liveley - the usual indulgent adjective for cars that don't handle.

 

http://www.theminifo...er#entry3338365


Edited by MontpellierVanMan, 27 June 2016 - 08:11 AM.


#34 Spider

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Posted 27 June 2016 - 08:56 AM

Yes, I remember your very well presented thread on Bump Steer and it did have some very good info and points in it.

 

Thank you MontperllierVanMan, once again, you have presented and expressed this quite well.

 

Give that man a cigar.



#35 tiger99

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 12:51 PM

Yes it is an excellent piece of work. Sadly most people here, or anywhere else for that matter, don't have the delicate touch to notice any imperfections in the steering response of their vehicles. But it is good to make things as nearly perfect as possible.

I find a standard Mini, without excessively wide wheels or stupid amounts of lowering or negative camber, to be adequate as regards torque steer. But that is just my personal opinion and I find that there isn't much and you have to be looking for it. I know that it is not perfect. However there is no way I would ever contemplate introducing the potential for severe torque imbalance by fitting a LSD.

As for bump steer, it may be that geometric bump steer can be reduced to near zero, but it might be best to retain some small amount, or maybe over-compensate, to approximately cancel the drag effect of a bump.

But opinions will differ. It is always right to try to improve things. No-one is wrong, except those who condone bad standards of roadholding and handling, and modify cars to actually make things worse. Slammers, hot-rodders.... Big V8 hanging out the back....




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