44 replies to this topic

[RooBoonix]

Modern race pads are fine. It's the old and famous Ferodo DS11 pads and the Mintex equivalent (M20?) which were so poor from cold. I can remember having to get them really hot before an MoT test and then get the tester to test the brakes first of all on my rally cars.
A Mintex 1144 pad is fine for all road use and the Carbon-Metallic pads now available are, quite simply, superb and work very well straight from cold. I've even used a Mintex 1177 on the road with no issues at all - that was in a Rover 214 Si rally car.

Do the carbon metallic pads have a similar lifespan to "normal" cheaper pads?

[Alex_B]

 

Modern race pads are fine. It's the old and famous Ferodo DS11 pads and the Mintex equivalent (M20?) which were so poor from cold. I can remember having to get them really hot before an MoT test and then get the tester to test the brakes first of all on my rally cars.
A Mintex 1144 pad is fine for all road use and the Carbon-Metallic pads now available are, quite simply, superb and work very well straight from cold. I've even used a Mintex 1177 on the road with no issues at all - that was in a Rover 214 Si rally car.

Do the carbon metallic pads have a similar lifespan to "normal" cheaper pads?

 

Too many variables to say for sure, depends on your usage mostly. At work we have some drivers that will go through a set of pads in a race weekend or even a single race but other drivers that will go a number of races on a set of pads, (not minis, but the principle applies)They do chew through disks more than lesser pads due to them having a higher coefficient of friction. 

[Cooperman]

For road use at more-or-less 'legal' speeds, standard good quality pads are fine. By 'good quality', I mean genuine Ferodo, Mintex, or equivalent.

It is for genuine competition use that special pads are needed. I use either Carbon-Metallic (in the 1275 'S' rally car) and Mintex 1177 where C-M is not available, for rally applications. In conjunction with these pads I use AP600 race brake fluid. The problem with standard brake fluid and comp pads is that if driven really hard the pads don't fade but the fluid boils which equates to total brake failure. I have had this in testing with a 1275 'S', DS11 brake pads and DOT4 fluid.

It might be said that if race pads are fitted and DOT4 fluid is still used but the fluid doesn't boil, then you didn't need race pads in the first place.

[David128]

Is :Dot 4 the best?

[Cooperman]

DOT4 is basically the standard hydraulic fluid for most production cars. It is a good fluid, but in hard competition when really good race/rally pads are fitted and used very aggressively it can and will boil. That releases bubbles which make the brakes feel as though there is a lot of air in the system. The fluid turns black and is no longer useable.

Years ago it was usual to use a high boiling point fluid known as 'Girling Amber'. Nowadays there is AP600 fluid which has a very high boiling point. But it cannot be mixed with DOT4 and to use it the system must be completely drained of DOT4 before the AP600 can be added. AP600 can be bought from Demon Tweeks Ltd. Only use it when fitting race pads and intending to drive in competition.

[Ivor Badger]

don't know what the problem is with DS11s/ VG95, used them for years on an S road car.

 

Tried this other chaps mini one day, he said "what do you think of the brakes?".

 

"Like what Brakes? feels like DS11s with no servo"

 

"oh that's what its got.". Brakes with DS11s were fine as long as you used decent discs and a servo. I suspect he had glazed the discs by never getting tem to work.

 

The pads and shoes along with a limiter valve rebuild were fitted to the S to stop it doing a handbrake turn every time you tried to stop in the wet. This characteristic was also aided by fitting Goodyear wide oval tyres.

 

The thing not to fit is a really noisy exhaust.

Edited by Ivor Badger, 30 October 2015 - 01:41 AM.

[RooBoonix]

 

Modern race pads are fine. It's the old and famous Ferodo DS11 pads and the Mintex equivalent (M20?) which were so poor from cold. I can remember having to get them really hot before an MoT test and then get the tester to test the brakes first of all on my rally cars.
A Mintex 1144 pad is fine for all road use and the Carbon-Metallic pads now available are, quite simply, superb and work very well straight from cold. I've even used a Mintex 1177 on the road with no issues at all - that was in a Rover 214 Si rally car.

Do the carbon metallic pads have a similar lifespan to "normal" cheaper pads?
 

Too many variables to say for sure, depends on your usage mostly. At work we have some drivers that will go through a set of pads in a race weekend or even a single race but other drivers that will go a number of races on a set of pads, (not minis, but the principle applies)They do chew through disks more than lesser pads due to them having a higher coefficient of friction. 

Sorry, I meant for road use. I have a 94 SPi and wondered if the carbon metallics are a worthy upgrade

[GraemeC]

I find the CM pads great in competition use.  For road use though I wouldn't suggest them - if the brake dust is left on the wheels for any length of time it bakes on hard, even aggressive wheel cleaners struggle to shift it.

[nicklouse]

i love this word competition it means nothing.

 

 

what i would use for one form of competition i would not use for another form of competition.

 

can people be a bit more specific about their competition it will save confusion.

[GraemeC]

I know what you're saying Nick, but in my case it doesn't matter - I was advising against using them for everyday road use.

If recommending them for a particular use, I would say rallying, circuit use or anything where high (especially maintained high) pad temperature was seen.  Probably no use for autotest or drag racing

[CMXCVIII]

i love this word competition it means nothing.

 

 

what i would use for one form of competition i would not use for another form of competition.

 

can people be a bit more specific about their competition it will save confusion.

 

You hillclimb, don't you? So I presume you use soft pads for instant bite? Back in the 1980s when I was circuit racing Production Saloons and one make Renault 5 Turbos we often fitted the softest [R5 GTL] pads for bite and grip and damn the expense if we had to change them between qualifying and the race!

 

@GraemeC - there's also circuit racing and circuit racing! There's a vast difference between Thruxton, where you brake twice on a lap, and Donington ParkGrand Prix where the seven big braking stops around the lap cause a lot more heat transfer trouble. 

[GraemeC]

There's also rallying and rallying - vast difference between test based historics and staging.

However - how far are we going to split hairs on a thread about 'How Not To Tune A Road Car'?!
 

[CMXCVIII]

- how far are we going to split hairs on a thread about 'How Not To Tune A Road Car'?!
 

 

Agreed. lets not split hairs - lets split Webers! A pair of split Weber carbs is very good value!

 

In the same spirit, I suggest that to park properly in a supermarket car park you definitely need a rear anti-roll bar, if not a beam axle conversion! 

[nicklouse]

There's also rallying and rallying - vast difference between test based historics and staging.

However - how far are we going to split hairs on a thread about 'How Not To Tune A Road Car'?!
 

I will quite easily as the number of people who used to turn up to events and wonder why they could not stop with thier super dooper "competition" while we were getting the rear wheels off the ground. they were told they needed competition pads so bought them. Oops.

 

CMXCVIII yep. No good going into a 45 second sprint with pads that need 60s of warming up. Or if you are at scammondam dam a 30s hillclimb.

 

roller rockers on a road car. I can think on better things to spend the cash on.

[cal844]

Fitting a stage one kit, but not changing the needle :)

some cars dont need the needle changed...