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Engine Stuttering At Low Revs, Especially When Cold


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#31 Ozymandias

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Posted 22 June 2015 - 01:18 PM

Update - picked the Min up from the garage on Saturday (took her in for a fuel and oil filter change which were both way overdue). They said they'd checked the oxygen sensor and ti was reading/working fine, that they'd gone for a test run and it was still spluttering but much better.

 

I drove away, it was just as bad as ever. When I parked up, I was reminded of an earlier post about the vacuum hoses being pushed on too far being able to create problems, so I wiggled them to loosen them a tiny bit.

 

Drove home without so much as a splutter...

 

She was a tiny bit spluttery on the way to work this morning but nothing like as bad - this suggests to me that there's a blockage/oil/gunk in the vac hoses, so I'll whip these off tonight, blow them through and replace them a bit less forcefully!

 

Blatherskite, thanks for your post re the temp sensor connection - I'll double check this as well, I'm never convinced mine reads as truthfully as it should!



#32 Ozymandias

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:23 AM

Gah - back to square one... :-(

 

I checked the hoses last night and they're all fine - carefully put them back on and she's stuttering and struggling just as bad this morning. It seems worse when she's cold. It's fine at idle or very little throttle, but as soon as I put my foot on the pedal properly she starts juddering and misfiring. :-(

 

I've still got things to check - sensor connections/wiring, TPS - but it's irritating as I thought I'd resolved this...



#33 spiguy

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:36 AM

sorry to hear that... :ohno:  Maybe the TPS will turn out to be the problem. Do you have a mutlimeter to be able to read the resistance value through its operation range?



#34 Ozymandias

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:44 AM

sorry to hear that... :ohno:  Maybe the TPS will turn out to be the problem. Do you have a mutlimeter to be able to read the resistance value through its operation range?

Thanks spiguy! I do have a multimeter - but I'm a bit clueless with electrics! How would I test it and what setting would I use on the meter?



#35 FlyingScot

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 09:45 AM

Did you check the throttle position sensor ? (TPS) post #6
FS

I didn't get the chance to do that - now it's at the garage I'll ask them to check it!

I'm guessing the garage didn't check it then?

FS

#36 spiguy

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 09:46 AM

Probably the easiest way to test it is using the resistance setting, because this way you can disconnect the connector and applyt the meter probes directly to the pins on the TPS (Not on the cable). The alternative method is to measure the voltage coming from the TPS, however to do that you need to leave the connector attached and find a way to break into the cable to probe the wires, which is more difficult.

 

I can't recall the exact range of the TPS, I think it is something like 5 K Ohms. Basically, it is a variable resistance. There are 3 pins on the TPS. If you measure between the outermost pins, you will read the full value of the TPS resistance. There is a resistive carbon track between the two outer pins. The centre pin is connected to a wiper which as the throttle plate opens, is moved along the length of the carbon track. So at one end of the throttle pedal range you will read almost 0 K Ohms, and at the other you read almost 5K Ohms (assuming it is 5K Ohms). So you want to have the meter set to read resistance - most meters have different ranges such as 200Ohms, then say 2K Ohms, then maybe 200KOhms. Start by measuring the full resistance of the TPS between the 2 outer pins, and work down the ranges until you get to the lowest range which can still read the value without indicating overrange.

 

To measure the actual performance of the TPS, you want to measure between the centre pin and one of the outer pins. it doesn't really matter which outer pin - all that will differ between choosing either one is the direction of the changing resistance. One outer pin to centre pin will read high to low as the throttle is opened, the other outer pin to centre pin will read low to high as the throttle is opened.

 

Get someone to very gradually and steadily operate the accelerator through it's range (engine off of course). Alternatively, if you can get the meter probes securely attached to the pins somehow, or have your assistant hold them on the pins, then you can just operate the throttle by hand using the throttle linkage. This is actually the better method if possible, as it saves confused communications with said helper, and if it is your missus, it saves her getting annoyed when you ask if she is being smooth enough with her 'pedal action' :lol:

 

What you are looking for is to see how the numbers change as the throttle is opened. In a good condition TPS, the value will start near the bottom or top of the range (depending on which outer pin you are measuring from) and then change smoothly, without jumping around, moving towards the other end of the range,  and without any dead spots where the reading could go suddenly very high or even open circuit (overrange on the meter). If the reading appears 'noisy' then the TPS is bad. Equally if the value at either end of the range is incorrect, it is also bad.

 

The most likely area of wear on a bad TPS is the area which sees the most use - from idle to part throttle. Usually mid to full throttle is fine as the wiper spends less time in that area and so doesn't wear the track away.


Edited by spiguy, 25 June 2015 - 09:49 AM.


#37 FlyingScot

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 09:56 AM

Good explanation spiguy. Range is indeed 5k ohms ( my new in the box TPS reads 5.2k across the outers).
It's a very basic component and must wear over time, since the later cars don't have an idle switch the MEMS is relying on this reading to indicated throttle closed and as above most of the wear occurs in the closed to partially open throttle positions.

FS

Edited by FlyingScot, 25 June 2015 - 09:59 AM.


#38 Ozymandias

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 09:59 AM

 

 

Did you check the throttle position sensor ? (TPS) post #6
FS

I didn't get the chance to do that - now it's at the garage I'll ask them to check it!

I'm guessing the garage didn't check it then?

FS

 

The garage were a bit clueless - they said they'd "looked at the carburettor and tuned it". I did point out that an SPi doesn't have a carb... >_<



#39 FlyingScot

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 10:02 AM

That's not good.... I wonder what "tuning" they did - let's hope they didn't mess with the throttle stop to try and adjust the idle speed.....

You need to find a better garage mate.

FS

#40 Ozymandias

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 10:02 AM

Probably the easiest way to test it is using the resistance setting, because this way you can disconnect the connector and applyt the meter probes directly to the pins on the TPS (Not on the cable). The alternative method is to measure the voltage coming from the TPS, however to do that you need to leave the connector attached and find a way to break into the cable to probe the wires, which is more difficult.

 

I can't recall the exact range of the TPS, I think it is something like 5 K Ohms. Basically, it is a variable resistance. There are 3 pins on the TPS. If you measure between the outermost pins, you will read the full value of the TPS resistance. There is a resistive carbon track between the two outer pins. The centre pin is connected to a wiper which as the throttle plate opens, is moved along the length of the carbon track. So at one end of the throttle pedal range you will read almost 0 K Ohms, and at the other you read almost 5K Ohms (assuming it is 5K Ohms). So you want to have the meter set to read resistance - most meters have different ranges such as 200Ohms, then say 2K Ohms, then maybe 200KOhms. Start by measuring the full resistance of the TPS between the 2 outer pins, and work down the ranges until you get to the lowest range which can still read the value without indicating overrange.

 

To measure the actual performance of the TPS, you want to measure between the centre pin and one of the outer pins. it doesn't really matter which outer pin - all that will differ between choosing either one is the direction of the changing resistance. One outer pin to centre pin will read high to low as the throttle is opened, the other outer pin to centre pin will read low to high as the throttle is opened.

 

Get someone to very gradually and steadily operate the accelerator through it's range (engine off of course). Alternatively, if you can get the meter probes securely attached to the pins somehow, or have your assistant hold them on the pins, then you can just operate the throttle by hand using the throttle linkage. This is actually the better method if possible, as it saves confused communications with said helper, and if it is your missus, it saves her getting annoyed when you ask if she is being smooth enough with her 'pedal action' :lol:

 

What you are looking for is to see how the numbers change as the throttle is opened. In a good condition TPS, the value will start near the bottom or top of the range (depending on which outer pin you are measuring from) and then change smoothly, without jumping around, moving towards the other end of the range,  and without any dead spots where the reading could go suddenly very high or even open circuit (overrange on the meter). If the reading appears 'noisy' then the TPS is bad. Equally if the value at either end of the range is incorrect, it is also bad.

 

The most likely area of wear on a bad TPS is the area which sees the most use - from idle to part throttle. Usually mid to full throttle is fine as the wiper spends less time in that area and so doesn't wear the track away.

This is wonderful stuff - really helpful, thank you! :-)



#41 Ozymandias

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 10:04 AM

That's not good.... I wonder what "tuning" they did - let's hope they didn't mess with the throttle stop to try and adjust the idle speed.....

You need to find a better garage mate.

FS

That's exactly what I thought - I'm going to go back to them and find out precisely what they "tuned"... <_<



#42 spiguy

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 11:18 AM

 

The garage were a bit clueless - they said they'd "looked at the carburettor and tuned it". I did point out that an SPi doesn't have a carb... >_<

 

 

Oh dear!.... :lol:



#43 Blatherskite

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Posted 25 June 2015 - 08:05 PM


 
The garage were a bit clueless - they said they'd "looked at the carburettor and tuned it". I did point out that an SPi doesn't have a carb... >_<
 

 
Oh dear!.... :lol:

+1

#44 Ozymandias

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 04:06 PM

I got the multimeter on the TPS - slightly weird results!! In situ on the manifold, using the linkage, it went between 1.08 and 4.37 ohms. Having taken it off and tested again, it went between 0.10 and 5.08, but fluttered around .08 for ages before going up.

The sensor itself doesn't seem healthy because of that, but why the difference in readings when it's in situ and not? Could there be a problem with the blade that drives it?!

To add insult to injury, my in laws got me tix to a Mini festival at Brands Hatch tomorrow - and I'll have to go in my family car, not the Min. :-(

#45 FlyingScot

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Posted 26 June 2015 - 06:29 PM

Sounds like it's duff. It should be rock solid assuming it firmly connected. The fluttering is probably what the MEMS is seeing.....
I'll check an installed TPS for you as your right with no throttle the position is slightly open.

FS

Edited by FlyingScot, 26 June 2015 - 06:31 PM.





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