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Fuel Pipe Internal Diameter


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#16 crf150

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Posted 27 February 2014 - 11:03 PM

Yes, copper will react with E10 fuel, and cause lots of problems downstream, but from the point of view of the fairly low pressure in the fuel system should be safe. It does need to be anchored down tight, as it is subject to fatigue fracture if it is allowed to vibrate.
 
In brake systems, copper as such is just plain unsafe, as it will not withstand sufficient number of full pressure brake applications without fatigue failure, even if the vibration aspect has been dealt with. Kunifer (copper/nickel alloy) is the stuff to use, and can be recognised as it is a lot harder that copper when it comes to bending or flaring, and has a reddish-grey tinge, copper being red.
 
Copper is illegal in exhaust systems, and although it is possible that it is not mentioned in the current version of the Construction & Use Regs (no need now, no-one uses it, why would they want to?), the problem was that it tended to react with certain combustion products to form explosive compounds, or so it was said. I think it was banned in about 1920. It also suffers badly from localised corrosion pitting due to chloride ions (as in salt!), especially when stressed, not what you would want in either a brake or fuel system.

So could I use it or not ? I could but it's not advised ? How long would it usually last ?

Edited by crf150, 27 February 2014 - 11:04 PM.


#17 Steve-O 2014

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 01:34 PM

Is cupro nickel / copper nickel ok for fuel line?

#18 tiger99

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 04:11 PM

Sadly no, not for E10 at least, if my information is correct. You could perhaps procure a fuel line for a modern (the newer the better, there must be lots of wrecks about) car from a scrappy, as the material will be compatible, possibly stainless. Often they come with flexible sections permanently bonded at the ends, but on a short little Mini you will likely be cutting the ends off anyway. Kunifer does resist external corrosion from salt much better than does copper, but see here for some information which suggests that bad things happen with E10 and above.

 

http://www.enertechl...in_gasoline.htm

 

There is a lot of contradictory information around about the compatibility of E10 fuel. My point of view is that I can't give advice that might result in your carburettor or injection system being gummed up by nasty deposits caused by a reaction between the fuel and the copper piping. Someone may claim that I am being over-cautious, which is fair enough, perhaps I am, but it would be rather rotten to say it was ok and then ruin someone's fuel system. Some fresh Googling shows a fairly large consensus that there will be problems, even with E5, but also a great deal of ignorance about the reason for using Kunifer instead of copper. There is also consensud that stainless steel is a very good idea, however you will not be able to flare the ends with a cheap tool, if you are using something like Goodridge braided flexibles, so you may be limited to using approved and marked as such rubber hose and jubilee clips, not so nice, although the car was originally plumbed that way.



#19 Steve-O 2014

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:07 PM

Mini Spares seem to sell copper pipe as fuel pipe - 

 

http://www.minispare.../fuel pipe.aspx



#20 KernowCooper

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:25 PM

Does say Copper Type so suspect its a kunifer type and copper / nickle mix



#21 Earwax

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Posted 28 February 2014 - 11:36 PM

Steve 0 and crf   - as i see it - tiger  and doug are strongly advising NOT to use copper. CRT you seem to want to use it...despite the warnings.... so i would suggest do your own searches as to legal ramifications but do as you will.



#22 Steve-O 2014

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:09 AM

So just to clarify before I go on the hunt for stuff, Is the ID of the main underbody fuel pipe 6mm (1/4") ?



#23 crf150

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:21 AM

Steve 0 and crf   - as i see it - tiger  and doug are strongly advising NOT to use copper. CRT you seem to want to use it...despite the warnings.... so i would suggest do your own searches as to legal ramifications but do as you will.


I didn't say that I'm using it, I was just question why it's not advised to and how long it would last because if you have spare. It's lying around that aren't being used then you would want to use it wouldn't you? I was purely asking to see if I could use that instead of wasting money getting different stuff if I could, looks to be the way of purchasing the stuff that has been suggested

#24 crf150

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:23 AM

Mini Spares seem to sell copper pipe as fuel pipe - 
 
http://www.minispare.../fuel pipe.aspx


I'm sure we can get minispares to clarify this, I will ask the question !

#25 crf150

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 11:32 AM

I'm not sure if the copper pipe that I have is 100% copper so i may have been asking these questions for no reason ! Any way of telling? I have 1 reel out of the bag and another still wrapped up, would it be marked on the copper?

#26 69k1100

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:01 PM

Copper work hardens. With vibration it will fatigue and crack. When used in braking applications the cycling of pressure will work harden it and cause fatigue cracks.

Since no one here is willing to comment due to the complexity of the issue and the possible ramifications why not call the manufacturer, or vendor or call a fuel systems specialist and ask ther opinion, at least they have insurance.

#27 69k1100

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:07 PM

And it's not pure copper, it's a copper nickel alloy, designed for applications such as fuel line and hydraulics. It is alloyed to improve its corrosion resistance and working characteristics, unlike pure Cu.

#28 tiger99

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:35 PM

Sadly, many suppliers are supplying almost pure copper, which as stated, is unsafe, for brake and fuel systems. Now, failure is unlikely in the fuel system, as the working pressure is very low, provided that the pipe is secured very well to prevent vibration, and I don't think that we know that it would be illegal there. The reason for NOT using copper or Kunifer is because it reacts with E5 or E10 fuel, and results in metallic compounds being deposited downstream, in the carburettor or fuel injection system, potentially causing major damage. It is very unlikely that even E10 will dissolve its way through the wall of the pipe, and I certainly did not intend to give that impression.

 

By the way, the use of copper in brake systems is not specifically outlawed in the UK, probably because VOSA are too incompetent to see the problem. However, it is illegal under generic provisions of the C&U Regs, by virtue of the fact that it us unsafe, due to tolerating an inadequate number of pressure cycles. It does not need to be specifically outlawed, although it is outlawed in the US (who are usually quite lax about vehicle safety, look at some of their truly appalling hot rods and you will see what I mean), Australia, most of Europe and various other places. The suppliers are committing fraud by passing it off as "brake pipe", because it is not, and the BS specification that some of them quote is intented to deceive, because the spec is not about brake pipe. Beware, many well-known Mini suppliers are in fact still supplying copper, despite claiming that they do not.

 

As for the fuel system, I have not been able to find any reference to rigid metal pipe having to be specifically approved or marked, although it is a legal requirement for flexibles, so I suspect that it is probably ok legally. But, as a general rule, you should never, ever give or receive legal advice on an internet forum, you really must consult your own lawyer for that.

 

All of the potential problems go away if you just use rigid pipe of the type used on modern cars, as I said earlier. And, it will normally by 6mm or maybe 1/4", so check that your legally marked flexibles, properly rated for E10 fuel, will fit correctly. (If the proposed supplier can't confirm compatibility, go elsewhere.)  Usually injection systems also have an 8mm return line.

 

Oh, and don't ever use the plastic-coated steel pipe which is commonly available, and highly praised by certain people. It is potentially lethal, because the coating becomes damaged slightly, and salty water gets in, causing very localised but deep pitting, which suddenly turns into a pinhole, causing sudden failure. Untill the point of failure the pipes look to be in good condition. That stuff ought to be illegal, as it has very dangerous and undetectable failure modes. It is as useless as old-fashioned underseal, for exactly the same reason, it only works when perfect, and accelerates hidden corrosion once it is cracked ever so slightly.



#29 dklawson

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:41 PM

Sorry, I didn't notice this thread was still running.  (EDIT:  Also sorry if I repeated anything Tiger said.  Apparently we were typing at the same time).

 

The reason people don't use copper line here (in the U.S.) is due to fatigue as 69k1100 said.  However, if the pipe is supported along its length I suspect fatigue would be a big a problem.  That said, as I mentioned earlier, copper is not used for fuel line in the U.S. and I am not comfortable suggesting you use it.  

 

Tiger brought up the E10 aspect of using copper.  I certainly cannot comment on your gasoline formulations in the U.K.  In the U.S. we have had ethanol in fuel for more than a decade.  It is one of two additives (the other being MTBE) added to our fuel to oxygenate it for emissions purposes.  When they found issues with MTBE, all gasoline here switched to having some percentage of ethanol.  There have been many, many discussions on many message boards about the ills of ethanol in fuel.  I personally have not had any problems but I have been shown various failed parts where the problem was blamed on ethanol.  I don't necessarily believe all the negatives reported but they are online for you to Google for.  Lacking a definitive, scientific study all you can do is make your best educated guess on the chemical compatibility of copper with gasoline containing ethanol.


Edited by dklawson, 01 March 2014 - 12:42 PM.


#30 tiger99

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 01:26 PM

The problem is that a lot of the information out there has been cross-posted from one forum to another, many times, and may be complete nonsense, or completely correct, but we can't easily tell. However, I have found that Wikipedia suggests that adding 1% water to E10 fuel will solve the corrosion problem. If true, that is an easy fix. The water will dissolve in the ethanol, which in turn is soluble in gasoline, so there will be none of the problems associated with water in normal fuel.

 

http://en.wikipedia....hanol_corrosion

 

On this occasion, the practice in the US, and even more so in Brazil, with 25% alcohol, is extremely relevant, but I am not having much success in finding out what kind of rigid pipe material is being used.






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