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Rubber Donuts Or Springs?


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#61 miniman24

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:23 PM

Ive got the Minitastic coils and am suitably impressed with them. Firstly I dont know how heavy some of you guys friends are but for everyone to have issues with loading and arch rubbing they must be pretty girthy! I say this because I regularly have 3 passengers plus myself in the car, mainly for shopping trips so we come back with the equivelent of another person in weight in shopping! Only ever had the rears rub once when I was driving "spiritedly" around the multistory on exit, full of passengers and shopping, and you know how steep those ramps can be. Other than that I have had zero issues with loading, and this is my unladen rear ride height:

 

p1010021b.jpg
 

They have also had little impact on the handling IMHO, a little more body roll but the gain in comfort is worth it - the car still changes direction very sharply. Overall Im pleased with them, Im not saying that everyone who prefers cones is wrong because they arnt, its just a matter of how you want the car to feel and much you think the springs affect the handling - for me, as the car is my daily driver the gain in comfort is worth the little extra body roll.


Edited by miniman24, 07 November 2013 - 06:23 PM.


#62 minimanclive

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:31 PM

I always liked the smooth ride in a hydrolastic suspension Mini, I'm watching this thread with interest as it looks like the Minitastic coil kit might give a more hydrolastic like ride.



#63 bluecooper95

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Posted 07 November 2013 - 06:32 PM

Where are you I need to test these two cars ;) jokes
Thank you although I still can't make my mind up.

I love the "metric is for people that can't do fractions" bit at the bottom :)

Hmm I see I would have to try both springs and cones because it mainly comes down to preference.

Edited by bluecooper95, 07 November 2013 - 06:35 PM.


#64 marcw

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 07:26 PM

Where are you I need to test these two cars ;) jokes
Thank you although I still can't make my mind up.

I love the "metric is for people that can't do fractions" bit at the bottom :)

Hmm I see I would have to try both springs and cones because it mainly comes down to preference.

Bluecooper - what did you end up with - i am at the same decision tree on a 68 Morris Cooper S with failed displacers 



#65 Spider

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Posted 02 December 2015 - 08:00 PM



I still await the comparison figures for deflection v applied load for rubber cones and coil springs. Clearly there will be different rubber cones and different springs so there should be several graphs.

 

I know this is an old post and it's all been done almost to death, but here the graph and numbers

 

Rubber%20Cone%20Tests%2007WM_zpsywudycyd



#66 darkrider

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Posted 19 April 2020 - 08:30 PM

I know I'm years (2020) ahead of you guys but I can't afford new cones as I have to import them and our currency is in junk status. so it's either finding old cones that are still high or fitting coils!!



#67 DeadSquare

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Posted 19 April 2020 - 10:44 PM

What are the rear doughnuts like ?

Will you be carrying rear passengers ?



#68 nicklouse

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Posted 19 April 2020 - 10:53 PM



I know I'm years (2020) ahead of you guys but I can't afford new cones as I have to import them and our currency is in junk status. so it's either finding old cones that are still high or fitting coils!!


enjoy they are not fit for purpose. dont have the required travel or rising spring rate. the go coil bound (see mokespiders image) look forward to the results of coil bind.

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#69 Wazzah

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 03:30 AM

My mini came with coil springs, hi lo's and adjustable bilsteins. It is my company car which I drive to work everyday and I club race it. Our club championship is based on 4 different events. Circuit sprints, hillclimbs, motorkhana and autocross.

My Sons also pinch it on Saturday nights and cruise with 2 of their mates. The suspension was set at a reasonable height. Apart from driving to work in peak hour traffic I would compress the coil suspension in some way that would compromise the vehicle. Diving under brakes, scraping tyres on flares on cornering or too many people in the car. The worst feeling is a flat out corner at the top of the back straight at our Sandown race track where the suspension would hit the bump stop and suddenly stiffen the car and send it into a massive drift at 160 kph. Played with ride heights, bilstein settings and the like and completed many events with varying settings, cambers, castors and toe angles at both ends of the car.

 

Fact 1- there is no such thing as a rising rate coil spring only progressive rate springs which rely on coil stacking of a tightly wound group of coils (soft rate) before a wider wound section of the same  spring (stiffer rate) comes into play.

Fact 2- the coil length of a mini coil spring is not long enough to have the progressive wound sections and is essentially a single rate coil.

 

It is entirely practical to fit stiffer springs to suit the event and I had considered this. I decided to try rubber cones and went with the red dots. Kept the bilsteins.

The ride was harsh but the handling was dramatically improved in all situations and with the same ride height it doesn't scrape anywhere.

The improvement in braking was also dramatic with no squat or dive to speak of.

I swapped out the red dots in the rear for standard cones in order to soften the rise. It didn't make a huge difference.

 

Fact 3- Mini rubber cones are true rising rate suspension mediums and a car like the mini absolutely needs rising rate suspension. What other car can almost double its kerb weight by adding passengers. A single rate coil cannot adapt to the massive increase to the sprung weight to kerb weight ratio. Any coil has therefore got to be a compromise.

 

With the uses I have for my car rubber cones have given me a set and forget suspension that copes with everything I do.

 

This is the right answer for me but perhaps the wrong answer for someone else who just want to take their mini out on a pleasant Sunday. 

 

I have become very adept at scanning the road ahead and dodging holes, drain covers etc, etc.

The raised "cats eye" reflectors on our Freeways drive me mad because they seem to crash through the car worse than ant pothole.

Nothing a Nigel Mansell lane change cant fix.

 

Allan Sainforth writes a book called "Race & Rally Car Source Book" which has numerous references to the mini and its rubber suspension.

Please read if you can get a copy and draw your own conclusions.



#70 Cooperman

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Posted 20 April 2020 - 11:29 AM

It has been explained many times on here why coil springs on a road-going Mini are totally unsuitable. Nick & Chris have gone into great detail and still we get those who, for some reason, can't understand what they have ben told and what has been explained very clearly and comprehensively.

The ONLY application for coil springs is on a full-on race Mini with high initial rate coil springs used on a smooth race track. The high initial spring rate means that as you turn-in under residual braking, the high spring rate resists body roll and this improves streering response.

Please listen to what Nick & Chris have so carefully explained and look at the photos of structural failures which those coil springs have caused.

The Mini was designed with rubber cone springs because coils were seen by Issigonis as unsuitable and impractical.



#71 darkrider

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Posted 21 April 2020 - 08:07 PM

I havr got quite a few rear cones that are quite high but of course rather hard! But they do work ok



#72 Bobbins

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 05:30 AM

I havr got quite a few rear cones that are quite high but of course rather hard! But they do work ok


If your old cones have plenty of height but are now hard and sourcing parts is a problem, try drilling some holes into the rubber to remove material and create a little more "give".

#73 mab01uk

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Posted 22 April 2020 - 06:52 AM

 

I havr got quite a few rear cones that are quite high but of course rather hard! But they do work ok


If your old cones have plenty of height but are now hard and sourcing parts is a problem, try drilling some holes into the rubber to remove material and create a little more "give".

 

 

This method of drilling holes in the rubber cones was often used for the rear cones on lightweight Mini racers in the 1970's and for fibreglass Mini based kit cars.


Edited by mab01uk, 22 April 2020 - 06:52 AM.


#74 Alice Dooper

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 09:18 AM

Ive got the Minitastic coils and am suitably impressed with them. Firstly I dont know how heavy some of you guys friends are but for everyone to have issues with loading and arch rubbing they must be pretty girthy! I say this because I regularly have 3 passengers plus myself in the car, mainly for shopping trips so we come back with the equivelent of another person in weight in shopping! Only ever had the rears rub once when I was driving "spiritedly" around the multistory on exit, full of passengers and shopping, and you know how steep those ramps can be. Other than that I have had zero issues with loading, and this is my unladen rear ride height:

 

p1010021b.jpg
 

They have also had little impact on the handling IMHO, a little more body roll but the gain in comfort is worth it - the car still changes direction very sharply. Overall Im pleased with them, Im not saying that everyone who prefers cones is wrong because they arnt, its just a matter of how you want the car to feel and much you think the springs affect the handling - for me, as the car is my daily driver the gain in comfort is worth the little extra body roll.

A big second that for the minitastic springs.  There definitely a lot of problems with other makes and the suspension travel of a Mini doesn't help for a spring based set up but....

 

I've had them for about 4 years on a hard driven MPI S Works on 13" wheels and WE LOVE THEM.  I take abuse from the purests and I understand and respect their opinion but I say come for a wee test hoke down some dank roads and do a few road humps and potholes.

 

Yes theres a bit more body roll, would be tempted to try a small anti roll bar as a wee project if I was bored and had the ££.  Took some experimenting with ride height, settled for just under 1cm above normal and they do need good dampers set quite low.  I've GAZ fitted and poly flex in most places.



#75 Spider

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Posted 23 April 2020 - 09:35 AM

Wholly thread revival !

I very recently just spent around 3 weeks testing various Rubber Cones and some New and Used Minitastic Coil Springs. I have a new test rig for doing them on now that has a far finer resolution and improved repeatability from the testing I did a few years back.

 

When I get some time, I'll post up some results.

 

But, just briefly, while the Coil Springs have come in for some criticism, they can actually be made to work, however, the total suspension travel must be limited and the set ride height limited. I've yet to do the maths here to see where that needs to be. The Photos of mine that Nick has kindly posted in this thread are a testimate and proof of the need to pay close attention to this aspect of them.

 

The other aspect that was very clear is that as Coil Springs have no self damping qualities, they need some very serious dampers to properly control them and the car. I haven't looked in to this aspect (and unlikely to) however, I doubt there's anything in the off the shelf range for Minis that would suit.

 

I'm not here to knock them (though it would be easy to form that view), however, one does need to be aware of the substantial changes needed to run them safely.






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