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So I Slid Out And Hit A Curb


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#16 HarrysMini

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:00 PM

 

 

In slightly damp conditions your wheels/tyres will have been a disadvantage. The 175 width tyres are really too wide for a light car like a Mini and a 165 tyre will always give more grip in wet or damp conditions.

 Yeah but then you'd moan about how a 165 tyre on a 7" wheel is too much of a stretch...

 

 

Of course, a 165 tyre should be on the appropriate width wheel. That goes without saying really.

 

The OP asked what else he could or should have done. The answer is to use a safer wheel/tyre combination for damp conditions, or, one might assume, if driving on over-wide tyres, to drive appropriately in wet conditions.

 

That's correct. The simple fact of the matter is, that 7" wheels (and 175 tyres) are too wide for a Mini, as you say. 

 

However, that is not helping the discussion and is a completely different topic.



#17 Cooperman

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:05 PM

Well, the OP did ask what he could or should have done and the answer, with 20/20 hindsight, is that he could or should have fitted tyres/wheels more suitable for the car.

Remember, the Mini was designed to have 5.20 crossply or 145 radial tyres. A 165 radial is good although in the wet a 145 could be better. I've driven many Minis on 175 width tyres - none of them my own, I hasten to add - and all have been inferior to a 165 or even a 145 tyre.

So, there is the answer really.



#18 tiger99

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 05:33 PM

I have never understood the obsession with over-wide wheels and tyres, and it is by no means confined to Minis. In almost every single case, the standard width of wheel and tyre is best for wet grip, which always deteriorates as you go wider. Consider how many wet days we get in the UK!

 

You don't gain very much in the dry with wide tyres either, maybe a slight gain, but the need for extra width is usually because you have too much power for the standard tyres to handle. Probably not on an A series!

 

Changing the tyres, within the permissible range for a given wheel width, at least does not change the scrub radius, if the camber angle is moderate. But as soon as the wheel width changes, you have to get involved in considerations about the amount of offset, not just to get clearance between wheel and arch, also maybe brakes etc, but also to get the correct scrub radius. Get that wrong, and the handling will degrade seriously, although the actual lateral "G" that you can pull in a corner might be the same. But if it "feels" wrong, you will not be going round corners fast....

 

But too much negative camber with a wide tyre, and the effective scrub radius will change, as the centre of the contact patch of the tyre will not be central between the tyre walls. You get other problems too, like excessive wear.

 

It might be very different on a race car, with slicks, running in dry conditions, but on the road, too wide is bad, and a waste of money too. And, it was at least a contributory factor to this accident.



#19 Tamworthbay

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:19 PM

I have never understood the obsession with over-wide wheels and tyres, and it is by no means confined to Minis. In almost every single case, the standard width of wheel and tyre is best for wet grip, which always deteriorates as you go wider. Consider how many wet days we get in the UK!
 
You don't gain very much in the dry with wide tyres either, maybe a slight gain, but the need for extra width is usually because you have too much power for the standard tyres to handle. Probably not on an A series!
 
Changing the tyres, within the permissible range for a given wheel width, at least does not change the scrub radius, if the camber angle is moderate. But as soon as the wheel width changes, you have to get involved in considerations about the amount of offset, not just to get clearance between wheel and arch, also maybe brakes etc, but also to get the correct scrub radius. Get that wrong, and the handling will degrade seriously, although the actual lateral "G" that you can pull in a corner might be the same. But if it "feels" wrong, you will not be going round corners fast....
 
But too much negative camber with a wide tyre, and the effective scrub radius will change, as the centre of the contact patch of the tyre will not be central between the tyre walls. You get other problems too, like excessive wear.
 
It might be very different on a race car, with slicks, running in dry conditions, but on the road, too wide is bad, and a waste of money too. And, it was at least a contributory factor to this accident.

The tyres fitted to cars rarely comes down to what is best. It comes down to what the bean counting dept think they can get away with. There are circumstances where you can go too wide, motorbikes are an obvious one where a wide tyre on a small bike doesn't have enough weight on it to get the best from it.

As for minis, tyre technology has come on leaps and bounds since 1959. If anyone thinks a mini on original tyres would be better than one fitted with modern 165 tyres then I think that would be a drive to watch! Far more important is tread pattern and compound. I fitted 195 uniroyal rain experts on the back of my MGB and it was almost unstickable in the wet. The previous budget 175s were terrible in the dry and borderline hilarious in the wet.

#20 Artful Dodger

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 06:39 PM

You went in too fast bud!:P. maybe a bit earlier on the brakes, no steering when on brakes and with a FWD do not lift off mid corner if you got some throttle on, the rear will just try to overtake the front. You shoulda braked a bit earlier, let the cars weight settle on to the steering wheels (takes moment of a second, go and do a corner flat, and then go do a corner with a slight dab of the brakes, you will see what I mean, not the speed, the weight transference) and not slammed the brakes on when you felt understeer!:P

#21 albo

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:06 PM

you cant beat a set of 225s all round,,great in the wet espec over me local village duck pond,, :lol:



#22 Barman

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Posted 21 October 2013 - 07:20 PM

Many, many years ago I received a phone call to say that I had 'exchanged' and I could collect the keys to my new house...

 

I jumped in my Saab 9000 and headed rushed off to the middle of Windsor to collect the keys...

 

Halfway round the roundabout between me and the estate agent I lost it an exited the roundabout backwards over the kerb and onto the verge... Luckily, nobody was hurt and the car was completely undamaged...

 

It was a new (company) car, standard everything the road was dry...

 

Clearly, I was driving too fast, perhaps it kicked down (auto) or perhaps my mind was just elsewhere...

 

Whatever, I was lucky and I got away with it... a lesson learned...



#23 Midas Mk1

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 01:22 AM

.


 


Edited by Midas Mk1, 22 October 2013 - 01:23 AM.


#24 tiger99

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 12:13 PM

Another thing to think about, if the rear end lets go on a Mini, is having the tracking checked. You now need to do that anyway, after repairs. If the rear wheels are not correctly toed in, and slightly toed out instead, the degradation in handling is truly amazing. The rear end suddeny has a mind of its own, instead of being generally well-behaved.

 

As for tyres, they "should" be much better nowadays than the crossplies that Issigonis had to work with, the exception being the vile, and even dangerous junk that floods the market from various places including Eastern Europe and China. Some of them get into the country as tyres for agricultural trailers, which is all that they are fit for, and are sold by the unscrupulous as being fit for cars. I don't know if anyone on this forum has been caught out by these, but they are certainly around in larger sizes.

 

But, always, the laws of physics dictate that in the wet, wider is not helpful. However, it is fair to say that a SLIGHTLY wider than standard tyre may give a little bit more dry grip, and if the tread pattern has been radically improved, and the water clearance is better, it "may" be better than a 1959 type narrow tyre in the wet. Actually it "will" be better, because nowadays it will be a radial tyre, and that change makes far more difference than just about anything else, if the suspension design suits radials, which it does on the Mini. However, my earlier general comment about avoiding excessive width is still true. 195s on a MGB are not excessively wide, possibly optimum, with today's technology, and Uniroyals are better than most at water clearance. If only we could get those on Minis, where the variety of decent tyres available is far less than it used to be.

 

There is however another thing to consider. The dry grip of a crossply may actually be about the same as a radial, using the same rubber compound, but only right at the limit, where understeer becomes a front wheel skid. Below the limit, the greater slip angle of crossplies means more understeer, which means more tyre wear and power loss, also more heat build-up in the tyres, but the understeer comes in ever so slowly and progressively as the speed rises (as does the lift-off oversteer) that even a complete idiot would find it hard to crash a crossply-equipped Mini. You can drive a radial-equipped car harder, but it bites more suddenly. Negative camber, it understeers even less, and bites even more suddenly, which is why only a modest amount of negative is needed for most drivers. My only ever major crash was in a Vauxhall Viva HA equipped with the then quite new Michelin X tyres, said to be the best thing since sliced bread. In fact, as I now know, their wet grip was mediocre, and they were prone to sudden breakaway on damp roads, which is precisely what they did. Their only good quality was that they lasted twice as long as crossplies. But as a 17 year old I new none of that.....






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