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Straight Cut Gears Worth It ?


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#46 TimmyG

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:14 AM

 

The kit Im thinking of buying doesn't come with 1st gear. So I use standard 1st gear that's in the box . So as your saying about the acceleration will be poor because of the cam .

So as I'm keeping the original 1st gear surely that's cured the problem or not ?

 

Surely the low 1st gear with the higher 2nd gear from a SC CR set will give a HUGE gap between 1st & 2nd.

If fitting SC CR gears they must be fitted as a complete 4-speed set so that they perform as intended in keeping a narrow power band high-revving engine 'on the cam'. With a standard low 1st and the high 2nd it will quite simply 'bog down' when the change to 2nd is made.

 

I think he might be referring to the minispares clubman sc/cr gearkit where it it uses the original (already straight cut) 1st gear with suitable laygear which 'gears -up' the original 1st, and provides suitable 2nd and 3rd gears to make up a good set of ratios.

infact these ratios look to be about the best for road use, at least in syncro form. Quaife make what look like would be a really good set of ratios for the road but i'm pretty sure they're dog engagement.......annoying as they have a 1st gear which is about half way between standard helical and the usual SC ratio and nicely spaced gaps after that.   



#47 Cooperman

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:16 AM

There seems to be some confusion about straight cut close ratio gears and when & why they are necessary.

First of all, forget the fact that the close ratio gears are straight cut. They would be stronger with helical gear form, but more expensive and the total sales volume is always going to be low, so they are manufactured with the SC form. 

 

The reason the car has gears is because the engine can only give its power/torque over a certain rev range, so different gear ratios are needed for different road speed ranges, with a low gear being needed to pull away from rest and intermediate gears to enable the engine to stay within it useable rev range whilst accelerating or cruising or maintaining a specific speed on a level road or on a gradient.

 

The optimum gear ratios are, therefore, determined by the engine's performance characteristics, i.e. the graph of revs against power and torque, and the Final Drive ratio (FDR) is selected to suit this situation as well.

 

The original designers will have selected the ratios for the standard car and, luckily for we Mini owners, the competitions people at the manufacturers will have selected alternatives to suit different uses and states of tune.

 

The SC CR gearbox alluded to here uses the 4 ratios homologated by BMC Competitions Dep't for race & rally cars, and these are the ratios offered by the vendors of SC CR gearboxes. They are really intended only for engines with a narrow and high-revving power band used for competition. They were never intended for use in a road car as the disadvantages outweigh the advantages. The biggest disadvantage when a SC  CR 'box is used in a road car is the need to fit a lower FDR to allow the vehicle to pull away in 1st gear, since 1st gear is high, 2nd & 3rd also being higher and all gears being close. If a lower ratio FDR is not fitted, the initial acceleration will suffer due to the need to slip the clutch a lot to pull away, especially on any sort of up-slope.

 

So, as a general rule you need a CR gearbox and a low FDR if:

 

The engine has a performance profile which gives a narrow power band (typically a Kent 286, BMC544 or hotter cam) and a high sustained rev limit (say 7000 rpm+).

It is to be used for competition (rallying, racing or hill-climbing).

 

You do not need, or even want, a CR gearbox if:

 

The engine has a broad power/torque band and will give its max power below 6000 rpm.

It is to be used as a road car including town driving

You want to be able to cruise it on main roads at up to 70+mph without it revving at, maybe, 5000 rpm at that speed.

You don't want to be frequently having to replace the clutch centre plate.



#48 TimmyG

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:24 AM

The kit Im thinking of buying doesn't come with 1st gear. So I use standard 1st gear that's in the box . So as your saying about the acceleration will be poor because of the cam .

So as I'm keeping the original 1st gear surely that's cured the problem or not ?

With the kit you are talking about, at least if it is the one i'm thinking about, the original 1st gear is used, but the laygear is 'geared-up' to make it longer and match with the new 2nd and 3rd gears, which in turn become closer to '4th gear' which isn't really a gear at all and bypasses the gear cluster straight to the final drive. So 1st gear will be long just the same as a full kit, though not quite as long....geeking out now but if I remember correctly the minispares clubman kit 1st gear ratio is 2.573, and the full kit version 2.544. Subtle but it's there and will be amplified by the final drive. I believe the Quaife gearkit 1st gear was something like 2.8........would be brilliant in a road car if it was available as a syncro kit, but I don't think it is.

EDIT: I've just been on Quaife website and they don't appear to do those ratio's anymore, only much racier versions.

 

Double EDIT! the gearkit is still there and my memory serves me wrong as the gearset with the good looking ratios IS a syncro kit! Price on application though.....possibly super pricey.

 

http://quaife.co.uk/.../products/qke5a


Edited by TimmyG, 20 September 2013 - 11:42 AM.


#49 Cooperman

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 11:30 AM

The standard gear ratios in the Mini were always very good, compared to other makers of that era. Fords were bad with a big gap between 3rd and 4th on their Cortinas for example.

An 850 Mini would do 20 in 1st, 40 in 2nd, 60 in 3rd and c.75 in 4th. The Cooper 998 would do 30 in 1st, 50 in 2nd, 70 in 3rd and c.88 in 4th. So that is excellent for road driving.

It's only when cams giving a narrow power-band started to be used that the ratios needed to be closed up and the FDR dropped as the Mini became so popular and successful in racing & rallying.



#50 diogoteix

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 02:19 PM

 

The kit Im thinking of buying doesn't come with 1st gear. So I use standard 1st gear that's in the box . So as your saying about the acceleration will be poor because of the cam .

So as I'm keeping the original 1st gear surely that's cured the problem or not ?

With the kit you are talking about, at least if it is the one i'm thinking about, the original 1st gear is used, but the laygear is 'geared-up' to make it longer and match with the new 2nd and 3rd gears, which in turn become closer to '4th gear' which isn't really a gear at all and bypasses the gear cluster straight to the final drive. So 1st gear will be long just the same as a full kit, though not quite as long....geeking out now but if I remember correctly the minispares clubman kit 1st gear ratio is 2.573, and the full kit version 2.544. Subtle but it's there and will be amplified by the final drive. I believe the Quaife gearkit 1st gear was something like 2.8........would be brilliant in a road car if it was available as a syncro kit, but I don't think it is.

EDIT: I've just been on Quaife website and they don't appear to do those ratio's anymore, only much racier versions.

 

Double EDIT! the gearkit is still there and my memory serves me wrong as the gearset with the good lookting ing ratios IS a syncro kit! Price on application though.....possibly super pricey.

 

http://quaife.co.uk/.../products/qke5a

 

If would be great to bother them only once asking for a price and posting it in this thread! Who is interested? Well, I just did, I'll let you know


Edited by diogoteix, 20 September 2013 - 03:00 PM.


#51 minilee94

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 04:41 PM

Iv spoke to med , bill Richards an mini speed today and all of them have sai it will be okay to use straight cut gears with that cam

Bill said who mainly deals with mini spares said that it is a great straight cut kit and and works very well with a Kent 286 cam
And the piper xt cam had the same power band as the 286

Med said it will be better to buy roller drop gears instead of straight cut gears but there way to noisy

And I have been told a 3.4 final drive will work well with my mini

#52 HUBBA.HUBBA

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Posted 20 September 2013 - 09:19 PM

Straight cut gears are not very noisy as thy are submersed in oil. Straight drop gears are nice and noisy

#53 minilee94

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 08:28 AM

Yeah it's drop gears I don't want straight cut as to much noise enough as it will be

#54 Cooperman

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 06:49 PM

Agreed, straight cut drop gears are horrible except for competition where a helmet is being worn.

On the road with SC drops ear plugs are advised on journeys over about 5 miles.

That is if you don't want to suffer from tinnitus inn later life - as I do (and it is really so unpleasant).



#55 TimmyG

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 04:57 PM

 

 

The kit Im thinking of buying doesn't come with 1st gear. So I use standard 1st gear that's in the box . So as your saying about the acceleration will be poor because of the cam .

So as I'm keeping the original 1st gear surely that's cured the problem or not ?

With the kit you are talking about, at least if it is the one i'm thinking about, the original 1st gear is used, but the laygear is 'geared-up' to make it longer and match with the new 2nd and 3rd gears, which in turn become closer to '4th gear' which isn't really a gear at all and bypasses the gear cluster straight to the final drive. So 1st gear will be long just the same as a full kit, though not quite as long....geeking out now but if I remember correctly the minispares clubman kit 1st gear ratio is 2.573, and the full kit version 2.544. Subtle but it's there and will be amplified by the final drive. I believe the Quaife gearkit 1st gear was something like 2.8........would be brilliant in a road car if it was available as a syncro kit, but I don't think it is.

EDIT: I've just been on Quaife website and they don't appear to do those ratio's anymore, only much racier versions.

 

Double EDIT! the gearkit is still there and my memory serves me wrong as the gearset with the good lookting ing ratios IS a syncro kit! Price on application though.....possibly super pricey.

 

http://quaife.co.uk/.../products/qke5a

 

If would be great to bother them only once asking for a price and posting it in this thread! Who is interested? Well, I just did, I'll let you know

 

Any reply from Quaife with a price? Maybe start a new thread to see if anyone is already using them......



#56 danbmini

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 06:39 PM

Straight cut gears & drops are not that bad for road use, with a full interior of course. 



#57 diogoteix

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:50 PM

 

Any reply from Quaife with a price? Maybe start a new thread to see if anyone is already using them......

 

 

I only asked Friday afternoon, let them enjoy their WE, just like me (taken today, Lisbon, 4PM, 32ºC...):

hardforthemoney_zpsbbbdfed4.jpg


Edited by diogoteix, 22 September 2013 - 11:51 PM.


#58 diogoteix

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 09:58 AM

 

 

Any reply from Quaife with a price? Maybe start a new thread to see if anyone is already using them......

 

 

I only asked Friday afternoon, let them enjoy their WE, just like me (taken today, Lisbon, 4PM, 32ºC...):

 

Quaife told me to ask Swiftune for an answer (I think they have exclusivity on those products for Mini), so I forwarded my price request today.

Cheers

Diogo



#59 diogoteix

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Posted 24 September 2013 - 12:51 PM

Hello guys, here is the answer from Swiftune regarding the "magical" ratio SC gearkit (1st:2.877, 2nd: 1.827, 3rd: 1.329). Unfortunately, it seems to have been discontinued:

 

"Hi Diogo,

Thanks for the e-mail.

Those ratios have been replaced with the Special Tuning original ratios of 1st 2.54:1, 2nd 1.731:1, 3rd 1.259:1 and 4th 1:1 as these were the ratios that everyone was requesting.

These kits are on the shelf and cost £580 plus VAT and carriage.

Please let me know your address if you want me to quote you for the despatched price.

Kind regards,

Malcolm."






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