36 replies to this topic

[MIGLIACARS]

The V-tec is too heavy, will mess the weight distribution, v-tec minis dont handle at all.

Proven to be the worst engine conversion for a mini.

Id have to agree

[Cooperman]

 

it might be possible to get really good road-holding on dry tarmac with a hybrid, but the handling might be dreadful.

 
I'm struggling a bit to understand this. Is it similar to the difference between 12" and 13" wheels, with the 13" s giving much higher grip on the corners than 12" s but not feeling as agile as it would on 12" s.

No, you took a little bit of what I said as part of a longer paragraph.
Handling and road-holding are very different things, as I've pointed out so many times on here. Road-holding is the actual measurement of the centripetal force which can be generated around a constant radius circle. Handling is the perception of how the dynamic inputs of steering, braking and the application of power are received by the driver.
I have tested Minis with excellent road-holding and appalling handling, and vice versa. An example of poor road holding and excellent handling is a Mini with a good suspension set-up, but running on forest pattern tyres. The handling is so predictable and easy, but the road-holding on tarmac is poor. I've also driven Minis on race tyres which can generate amazing cornering forces, but which have had some unpleasant handling traits.
The difference between 12" and 13" wheels is a factor of tyre width as much as wheel diameter. A 175 section tyre, as fitted to the normal 13" wheels is just a bit too wide, unless it is used on a totally smooth road and the tyres are a very sticky compound and it is dry. In the wet the tyres will have insufficient contact pressure to squeeze the water out. With full-on wet racing tyres it is a different matter. The different side-wall depth has other effects on ride, road-holding & handling, but that is not the subject of this thread. Keith Calver has published a very accurate article about this.

But the original question was about hybrid cars with non-A-series engines and the point it that different installations, done by different people, can be excellent or poor to bad. It's all to do with the engineering resources and the abilities of those doing the conversions as the engineering issues are complex.

[Kam]

Where are all these people saying the honda swaps have been proven to be the worst conversions? Proven where and how? Cost efficiency, handling, parts choice, difficulty, lack of online knowledge, reliability, buid time, other? On road, track, drag, rallying, other?

 

I've driven a honda mini that was pretty bad on the road to be honest but I've also driven a vauxhall mini that wasn't exactly what I would call setup either but I've never drove them two since so how do I know how they have fared out? I don't as the cars weren't completed at the time but could be by now, certainly didn't make me think one engine swap was worst than the other

 

Honda has been proven to have the worst gear ratio choice out of all popular engine swap builds like vauxhall, honda, rover and suzuki but that don't make it the worst but then again thats why there is a choice as every swap has its own pros and cons, an a-series is just the same

 

If people are building them and they are not right on the road afterwards then either don't build them or do your homework before taking on the task, if you can't be bothered doing the homework pre build you will have problems - now that is a proven fact and not some comment from a bloke down the pub...

 

So all the honda swaps are proven to be the worst? I'm sure you will find people still driving them and enjoying them years down the line, infact that goes for all the engine swaps, ever hear of the good ones or just the worst ones? is that any different to a-series or any other engine for that matter?

 

Vtec engine is too heavy? Are we taking B or D? D is fine compared to an A series, B is an alloy block and around 20-25kgs heavier than an a-series, vauxhall 2.0 XE is a cast block, once again all engines are different, I don't generalise all engines to be the same

 

Whether anyone is building a mini with an engine swap for the road or track or whatnot then unless they are building it for that purpose alone then don't expect it to handle like the mini it used to be when it hits its given ground, yes you can make it handle better if its atrocious out on its given ground but certainly not far off from a normal mini if its for road use - thats where homework comes into it

 

I like the a-series and I like the honda swaps, just like I like the vauxhall, rover, suzuki and whatever else you want to put in there

[Artstu]

For me then the handling verses road holding difference is likened to the change of wheel and tyre size I mentioned, at least for me it is.

 

As to the Vtec being rubbish compared to A-series, perhaps no one has so finely honed a car in the same way some of the best A-series cars have been honed. Are some people perhaps comparing well sorted A-series track cars to road going hybrid cars that they've seen on track at an action day?

[RemKingston]

We managed to keep up with a F40, TVR Cebera, MR2 Turbo and a selection of 911s through straights and corners at the weekend

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think "Handling" and "Confidence to commit" may be getting confused here.  

 

 

 

 

An A series engine & gearbox weighs 150kgs. The K20 VTEC weighs 177kgs.

Not really much in it considering the power gains on top also.

Edited by RemKingston, 03 September 2013 - 12:16 PM.

[MIGLIACARS]

be care full what you put on the internet some people have been done for speeding and filming it then uploading it

[RemKingston]

There's no speeding in the above videos.  Not giving stuff to the BIB that easily!

[Kam]

The net is full of driving vids and so are the build diaries here no matter what engine is in there, if anyone wants to post up a vid of them speeding then thats there own fault

 

Unfortunately thats where you will also find proof that any of the engine swaps can handle and there is certainly no issues aslong as the person knows what they are doing and not just trying to put it together with a bag of spanners

 

There is also some sweeping statements on here about I feel its not just the handling its more the engine, some people just hate honda, hate having honda in a mini or just hate anything not a-series in there - my advice get over it 

 

Someone mentioned ultimate mini dvds, well check them out, apart from seeing one on a trackday yourself (honda going round or whatever) or seeing footage posted online then at least them vids show the swaps can work if done properly, alot of cars on there have problems and they get highlighted, its the best most can see without actually driving a few of them, infact if you get a chance (not always possible) but try and get a drive in some if people will let you

 

Theres a club for engine swaps like this and they have there own sprint championships, all manner of engine swaps enter, they are not worried about how the car looks but can make them go well round a corner 

 

Heres another vid for the hate club on here though, its a 2.0 honda vtec in the front with 200hp and 148tq with standard interior inside with standard mini three dial dash, standard steel wheels (4.5") with a standard mini front track and standard mini rear subframe and runs with either 145/12's or 165/12's depending on owners mood, the car is not even finished yet inside and out or the engine itself, car is built for the road alone for long distance stuff but has seen track action in germany even though its not built for it, speeds look like there were all 30 in a 30, 50 in a 50, 70 in a 70, its not there fault everyone else was going tragically slow officer 

 

 

If no one understands how all the above goes together and still stays upright then I'd suggest people get educated or drive a few before making sweeping statements

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with vtec mini handling or any other engine swap handling if done right, nothing wrong with an a-series if you want to keep it, but are people comparing a vtec and a-series handling side by side here? apples for apples here? If not then good as that would be silly, but as for the vtec handling being off or whatever well what can one say until people have driven a few

[KJM]

All this talk about the Honda, Vauxhall etc conversions but how about the front engines bike conversions such as promotive and lynx ae; how do they generally fayre against an A series ?

(in terms of handling... We all drive to have fun in a mini, if it feels good then surely that's all that matters?)

[R1mini]

All this talk about the Honda, Vauxhall etc conversions but how about the front engines bike conversions such as promotive and lynx ae; how do they generally fayre against an A series ?

(in terms of handling... We all drive to have fun in a mini, if it feels good then surely that's all that matters?)

 

Following the logic on here that the vtec is hopeless/horrible because it's 25kgs heavier, then the fwd bike engined mini being 40 plus kgs lighter than an A series, they must be amazing and unbeatable

 

Cheers

David

[charie t]

I drove a 1.8 VTEC engine car and I thought it quite unpleasant. True, it was mega-quick, but it felt unsafe when hurried through twisty B-roads.

 

And how many 'a series' minis have you driven that have been set up badly and feel unsafe?

Can't base 1 car on all

[RemKingston]

Are they just too quick for some people?

[Hegnirst]

Are they just too quick for some people?

 

i must comment on this, because you are going much faster to even a race spec 1293 in some cases, the brakes are going to be a different feel, so is the body roll, so is your reaction etc. Just because some people haven't gone that fast in a mini or something that small and low, they don't have the same gut as if they were driving it 30mph slower for example. So because of this the car they find uncomfortable to drive. the mini is a wonderful car in all forms.

 

just enjoy it! i know I'm going to have fun in a straight lines AND around corners! and be able to take 4 people in the mini and not excuse it because of the weight in the car even with 100bhp from an a series! 

 

just had to add my 2p

[Broomer]

I honestly couldn't really feel much of a difference between my A series and K series. The K series is slightly more forward but also slightly lighter. If there was a slight difference in handling / road holding ( which I don't think there is ) it is out weighed by the gains in mpg, power for pound and reliability.

[Midas Mk1]

I drove a 1.8 VTEC engine car and I thought it quite unpleasant. True, it was mega-quick, but it felt unsafe when hurried through twisty B-roads.

 
And how many 'a series' minis have you driven that have been set up badly and feel unsafe?
Can't base 1 car on all

Agreed, it's like the 13" debate, setup badly a car with any wheels is gonna handle rubbish, setup up well and it's surprisingly good