36 replies to this topic

[Harrison541]

How does the handling actually compare between an A-series and a VTEC Mini?

 

A lot of people dismiss it straight away saying that the handling is crap, but a lot of conversions used to use a Metro subframe with Metro suspension and wheels, so obviously the handling will not be like the original car. But what about using an Allspeed frame, with Mini rubber suspension and 10/12" wheels. How much is the handling affected then?

[Cooperman]

Do you mean 'Handling' or 'Road-Holding'? They are not the same thing at all.

[Harrison541]

Do you mean 'Handling' or 'Road-Holding'? They are not the same thing at all.

 

Well both I suppose, I know you cant just stick a different (heavier) lump under there and expect it to be the same, but surely it can't be as bad as some people make out.

What's likely to happen with regards to cornering speeds, grip through the bends and body roll etc?

 

Edit: just had a quick search and your thread came up: http://www.theminifo...d-road-holding/

I'll give it a read.

Edited by Harrison541, 01 September 2013 - 09:44 PM.

[Cooperman]

As the Mini with the A-series is such an established car for road, racing & rallying, it is fairly easy to say what will be best for road-holding and handling for those specific uses. For each the set-up will be different in terms of suspension settings, wheel & tyre combinations and other relevant settings.

 

With re-engined Minis, as with all re-engine cars, the specific performance will depend on the design & engineering quality as well as the settings.

 

I can only say that I've driven more different Minis than I care to recall over the past 52 years, but I drove a 1.8 VTEC engine car and I thought it quite unpleasant. True, it was mega-quick, but it felt unsafe when hurried through twisty B-roads. The owner of that car did a long charity run in my Cooper 'S' and said that he wished his VTEC car felt as 'friendly' and easy to drive as my rally car.  Of course, it may have been poor design & build quality with his car, but it was not to my taste. If I wanted a 1.8 VTEC engine car for good performance I think I would buy a car with that engine fitted as standard rather than create a 'hybrid'

[alicetheauto]

It depends what engine is used and where it's fitted. Almost certainly suspension mods will be needed as a series power plants are very heavy. Putting a lighter motor in, especially at the back, will change the weighting of the car significantly.

[jmmini]

A lot of more modern engines (VTec, k series etc) are actually lighter than the a series engine, coupled with an allspeed type subframe I can't see the front been heavier than a normal mini to be honest

[jaydee]

The V-tec is too heavy, will mess the weight distribution, v-tec minis dont handle at all.

Proven to be the worst engine conversion for a mini.

[Cooperman]

Vehicle dynamics is a complex subject. To re-engine a car and create a 'hybrid' can give excellent results, but sometimes it is hard to get it right without a lot of calculation and testing.

It is not just the change in engine/gearbox mass, it's also the change in centre of gravity both fore & aft and in the vertical plane as well. That changes the required suspension settings. Then there is the issue of structural rigidity. the VTEC I drove seemed to have lost a lot of torsional rigidity and it felt as though the front was not as connected to the rest of the body as might have been ideal to cope with the extra power & torque.

It is hard to see how the small companies or individuals doing these low-volume 'hybrids' can have the ability to do the maths to get it even somewhere near the optimum, but a competent qualified vehicle dynamics engineer could get very close with sufficient testing and calculation.

With the knowledge which exists on the optimum settings for A-series engine Minis there may not be much advantage in building a hybrid, but if you fancy the engineering challenge then go for it and set it up to best suit what you want to do with it.

[Harrison541]

The V-tec is too heavy, will mess the weight distribution, v-tec minis dont handle at all.
Proven to be the worst engine conversion for a mini.

This post shows what I was on about really. I'm not having a go, but lots of people say the same thing and yet I see no mention of handling with Rover or Vauxhall engines. I was trying to find out if it is just the Honda lumps that reduce the handling or if it is all conversions. I know that a B-Series Honda for example is a hefty chunk heavier than an A series whereas a Rover K series is a good 20kg lighter.

I suppose from what has been mentioned we can say that all engine conversions will affect the handling unless they are set up perfectly (which is unlikely) but the VTECs are particularly bad due to the extra weight?

To be honest, if I could have any engine in a Mini I would have the 1380 8 port from one of the Ultimate Mini DVDs, just cost puts me off.

Edited by Harrison541, 02 September 2013 - 04:44 PM.

[Cooperman]

It's not the handling that will be affected. The handling is the way the vehicle responds to dynamic inputs from steering, braking and power application when compared to what is expected or desired.

A 'hybrid' will involve a lot of engineering issues probably more concerned with the road-holding on different surfaces. You could build a hybrid which would be stunning down a drag strip where power-to-weight ratio and the transmission of the power to the ground are the critical factors. But ask that car to go around a corner, especially if it is a bumpy road, and it's entirely different.

Then again, it might be possible to get really good road-holding on dry tarmac with a hybrid, but the handling might be dreadful.

It comes down to how good a vehicle dynamics engineer you are. Doing the installation is relatively easy, it's making it all work in an acceptable way. I would bet that my Mk.1 Cooper 'S' with its 1310 cc engine giving c.115 bhp would be quicker than almost any hybrid along a bumpy & twisty road, but that I could be 'blown away' in a straight line on smooth tarmac.

The question might be why would someone take a valuable classic car and make it a less valuable hybrid with performance which is hard to use on a public road. Maybe it's the simply engineering challenge, as it's not cheap to do and for the same money a really quick modern car can be bought.

[RemKingston]

Swings and roundabouts at times.

Get in touch with a few owners and go for a spin.
It's the only way you'll make your own opinion as it all comes down to opinions to be honest.


Mine has a bit of understeer but the sheer kick from being thrusted in a straight line is something else.
But that understeer is just a suspension setup tweek away from being sorted.

I wouldn't compare an A series Mini with a VTEC engined transplant.. They're only similar in looks from the outside.

Edited by RemKingston, 02 September 2013 - 06:04 PM.

[R1mini]

This is the first time I've heard about poor road holding/ handling of a fwd hybrid, provided they are correctly setup they should be fine, shouldn't they?

 

Cheers

David

[Cooperman]

I have to say that the VTEC one I drove was, quite simply, very poor in all respects except straight line acceleration/speed.

However, a good friend is just finishing a K-series hybrid with a 214 Si unit and I'm hoping to get to test is soon. I think it will be much better as the engineering is well thought out. It will be interesting to test and help set-up.

[Artstu]

 

 

it might be possible to get really good road-holding on dry tarmac with a hybrid, but the handling might be dreadful.

 

 

 

I'm struggling a bit to understand this. Is it similar to the difference between 12" and 13" wheels, with the 13" s giving much higher grip on the corners than 12" s but not feeling as agile as it would on 12" s.

[jmmini]

From what I have seen, doing an engine conversion to a mini from 1980 ish onward doesn't lower the value of a mini but the opposite at this point in time, obviously in the future this will change. A few people might know how much I love the k series engine, and it's defiantly something I will be doing when I'm old enough to insure it.