Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Stainless Steel Bolts


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#16 Captain Mainwaring

Captain Mainwaring

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,712 posts
  • Location: Indonesia
  • Local Club: Surabaya Mini Club

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:22 PM

I love shiny stuff but for any critical component on a car whether its a mini or something else unless you meet the exact specs or higher than the OEM part you are playing with fire. The potential for an accident due to a failed component is going to be higher.

And god forbid the accident is so bad a fatality occurs and more in depth investigations are carried out.The insurance company will drop you like a hot stone if the parts found that caused the accident are non standard or do not meet the OEM criteria, plus then there will be the fallout of law suits possible jail time and so on.

Scaremongering maybe, will it happen hopefully not but as we have learnt in the Aviation industry all it takes is one small component or item that will start a cascade event leading to a major incident.

It's always worth buying your hardware from a reputable company who can if asked give you details about material spec, KSI ratings and whether the item is suitable for where you want to use it.

Personally for me I use aviation quality bolts where possible as I can trace their history through paperwork. We use a lot of stainless bolts and titanium on the airframe and engines but like anything else these are approved by the manufacturer.

Be careful of where you buy especially of Ebay etc.

Amazing isn't it that some people buy safety critical parts like brakes, suspension and drive shaft joints from a man on ebay who purchased them from another man in another country  and they don't have a bit of traceability - many of them are so bad that quality control is done when the end user tries to fit them and can't    :-)



#17 Captain Mainwaring

Captain Mainwaring

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,712 posts
  • Location: Indonesia
  • Local Club: Surabaya Mini Club

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:23 PM

Can people give there views on titanium whilst this thread is here, i know its a different material but was wondering if theres anty down side or reaction like stainless ?

Have seen some 5/16th's bolts on e-bay so would like to know haha

 

Cheer

Cliff

 

Read up on the properties of Titanium and in more detail about how it has to be finished so that it doesn't crack like a carrot and ask why a man is selling them on ebay.....



#18 Captain Mainwaring

Captain Mainwaring

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,712 posts
  • Location: Indonesia
  • Local Club: Surabaya Mini Club

Posted 18 July 2013 - 01:37 PM

You should never, ever use either stainless or titanium for anything major on your car. Stainless are mostly too weak (lacking in static strength) and the higer grade may have almost as much static strength as a standard 8.8 bolt, but very inferior fatigue strength, so will be liable to fail rapidly due to the dynamic stresses that the working bits of the car are subject to. Titanium is another thing altogether, and size for size is NOT as strong as a standard 8.8 bolt. Weight for weight, it is significantly stronger, which is why it is used in aircraft. A 100g weight titanium bolt may have the strength of 150g of steel, but it will be bigger. Where weight matters more than size, titanium wins, but obviously not as a direct replacement for steel.

 

If you want to use stainless and titanium on your car, do it only with minor, low stressed items, that will not result in any kind of hazard if the bolts break. Stainless is fine for attaching trim, for instance, and the lenses on light units, and probably ok for boot and bonnet hinge fixings (not the doors, please, they directly affect safety), maybe mounting some electrical bits such as fusebox and wiper motor, gearlever gaiter and such like, and that is about your lot.

 

 

It's probably better to let young's modulus (stress/strain) speak for itself.

 

Comparison%20of%20structural%20design%20

 

No limitations on thickness in relation to brittle fracture apply to stainless steel; the limitations for carbon steel are not applicable due to the superior toughness of stainless steel. The austenitic stainless steel grades do not show a ductile-brittle impact strength transition as temperatures are lowered. 
Stainless steels can absorb considerable impact without fracturing due to their excellent ductility and their strain-hardening characteristics.

 

Comparison of structural behaviour of stainless steel and carbon steel members

The main reasons for the difference in structural behaviour between carbon and stainless steel members are:

  • The stress-strain curve for stainless steel departs from linearity at a much lower stress than that for carbon steels
  • Stainless steels have greater ductility and a greater capacity for work hardening than carbon steels
  • The material modulus of stainless steels reduces with increasing stress, unlike that of carbon steels which is constant
  • The residual stresses arising from fabrication are higher in stainless steel than in carbon steels.


 

 

http://www.bssa.org....php?article=125

 


Edited by Captain Mainwaring, 18 July 2013 - 01:38 PM.


#19 sonikk4

sonikk4

    Twisted Paint Polisher!!!

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,033 posts
  • Name: Neil
  • Location: Oxfordshire

Posted 18 July 2013 - 02:53 PM

The biggest issue with Titanium is Hydrogen Embrittlement. You may not see if they have been contaminated but when they have suffered like this they become dangerously fragile, susceptible to cracking etc.

Certain cleaning products contain chemicals which can cause this so something to consider.

Now a lot of the bolts we use nowadays are Inconel ( see the below link for explanation)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel

A much better material with regards to corrosion protection and to also eliminate creep caused by heat. However not cheap.

We still use steel, Stainless Steel,Titanium and Aluminium bolts but these are all anodised or clad to help prevent corrosion. You can normally tell the difference by weight or by colour coding on the end of the bolt and of course via part number which is partially stamped on the head.

#20 tiger99

tiger99

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,584 posts
  • Location: Hemel Hempstead

Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:46 PM

Captain Mainwairing, that information is rather confusing, as it seems to be relating to the wrong grade of carbon steel. Also, work hardening is not good. There is no correlation at all between the data shown and the fatigue life, which is the most imporatnt thing in automotive applications.

 

The source of the data has a vested interest in selling stainless bolts, even where they are not appropriate. The following table in the link shows that a much lower design stress has to be used for stainless.

 

The subject is most complex, and every parameter has to be considered when choosing bolts that differ from the originals. In some cases it is not safe to replace an 8.8 bolt by a 12.9, even though it is stronger, because its fatigue life at the same cyclic stress level may be less, and it tends to be brittle. Actually, few steels have a fatigue limit significantly higher than "mild" steel, and ali, titanium and other exotic bolt materials don't have a fatigue limit at all, and can only safely be used where the peak to peak load range and total number of cycles is known.

 

Then there is the Chinese/Ebay problem. Almost all high tensile bolts originating from China are trash, indeed they are the very worst product category, followed by rolling element bearings, as far as bogus parts are concerned. We have continual monitoring of incoming materials at work, and it is amazing how many counterfeit items manage to find their way into what seem to be legitimate supply chains.

 

If in doubt, I would stick to the original bolts, every time.



#21 tiger99

tiger99

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,584 posts
  • Location: Hemel Hempstead

Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:59 PM

sonikk4, that was interesting. Inconel seems to be a very useful material, but not needed in most places on a car, which don't run really hot. I can see that it could be very useful in turbochargers etc, which after all are not far removed from the jet engine it was invented for. It is said to be weldable by TIG, so might be just the thing for someone whose manifold runs hotter than normal, due to the way the engine is tuned. Maybe for exhaust valves too? Unfortunately, it seems to be very difficult to machine.

 

I am thinking that it might also be useful for the business end of direct into cylinder fuel injectors. That technique, used on all diesels, is coming to petrol engines. We may even see it on a Mini eventually.



#22 Captain Mainwaring

Captain Mainwaring

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,712 posts
  • Location: Indonesia
  • Local Club: Surabaya Mini Club

Posted 18 July 2013 - 11:45 PM

Captain Mainwairing, that information is rather confusing, as it seems to be relating to the wrong grade of carbon steel. Also, work hardening is not good. There is no correlation at all between the data shown and the fatigue life, which is the most imporatnt thing in automotive applications.

 

The source of the data has a vested interest in selling stainless bolts, even where they are not appropriate. The following table in the link shows that a much lower design stress has to be used for stainless.

 

The subject is most complex, and every parameter has to be considered when choosing bolts that differ from the originals. In some cases it is not safe to replace an 8.8 bolt by a 12.9, even though it is stronger, because its fatigue life at the same cyclic stress level may be less, and it tends to be brittle. Actually, few steels have a fatigue limit significantly higher than "mild" steel, and ali, titanium and other exotic bolt materials don't have a fatigue limit at all, and can only safely be used where the peak to peak load range and total number of cycles is known.

 

Then there is the Chinese/Ebay problem. Almost all high tensile bolts originating from China are trash, indeed they are the very worst product category, followed by rolling element bearings, as far as bogus parts are concerned. We have continual monitoring of incoming materials at work, and it is amazing how many counterfeit items manage to find their way into what seem to be legitimate supply chains.

 

If in doubt, I would stick to the original bolts, every time.

 

 

It's not confusing at all if you're dealing with material specs frequently - people simply don't realize sometimes that even in 316 SS tube there are many different specs, mostly down to annealing and heat treatment. 

You can buy 316SS as bright annealed (it's normally drawn from the mill in a high argon environment) that is used for medical and architectural applications, it's UTS doesn't come close to that of mild steel of a similar thickness.

 

A company I contracted to got caught out royally (and how they deserve it) - they built a machine structure in china, the frame was made from 50x50mm 304 box section. The minute I set eyes on it I knew something wasn't right - it was all bright and shiny. For years they used 2B brushed 50mm box for structures which by definition is 3/4 hard - with no trouble at all. The first time I heated this machine up (70 tonnes of stainless), the structure buckled and you couldn't open the doors. With the "correct" material there was sufficient torsional stiffness in the frame that the expansion would cause the structure to slide on it's footplates - with the crap they used, it all buckled and the doors twisted and leaked.

If that wasn't enough - the 316 steel sheeting in the "wet" end of the machine started rusting, shafts snapped, bearings collapsed and loads more little joys.

 

Serves the buggers right for dumping a perfectly good workforce in the UK and selling their souls for tonnes of chinese crap. 

 

Back to the plot - the chinese used bright annealed tube straight from the drawing process without using any shielding gas - you couldn't have heat treated it afterwards if you had wanted to.

 

The UK company buyer believed the crap the chinese sold him - they told him that 50x50x1.2 square box section 304 tube wasn't available in china and they had to special draw it for him - which was why it was shiny. 

 

The bloody stuff wasn't even fit to make hand rails out of.

 

Generally there is a damned good reason why the OEM specs a material for a fastening, occasionally it can be improved upon, but many times there are far reaching implications that the DIY guy working in his garage could have no hope of realising.

 

I use SS on non critical parts where the tightening torque is low - clutch cover on the bike and various frame fixings, but not for anything that might cause my face to contact the tarmac if it breaks.



#23 tiger99

tiger99

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,584 posts
  • Location: Hemel Hempstead

Posted 19 July 2013 - 08:35 PM

Well, we are agreed then, and I apologise for becoming confused by what you presented. Not at all surprised about the Chinese....



#24 ibrooks

ibrooks

    One Carb Or Two?

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,017 posts
  • Location: Darwen, Lancashire
  • Local Club: Leyland Mini Club

Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:38 PM

Please also beware of the term "Aviation Quality" it has no meaning for our purposes.

 

If the design spec for a plane/helicopter/missile/whatever calls for a bolt that's made of cheese then that's what you must fit and that cheese bolt is "Aviation Quality" despite the fact that it's not strong enough to hold your fusebox to the bulkhead.

 

What the aviation business pays extra for is traceability to the nth degree and guarantees on quality. They might be buying a box of 50 M8x10 8.8 MS bolts and pay three times what I would pay for them at the local hardware distributors. The bolts they get are no better than the ones I buy. If one of mine breaks because it wasn't quite up to spec though then it's pretty much my problem and hopefully it wasn't on something critical enough to cause a problem. If one of theirs brakes...... that plane full of people has a wing fall off and they all die screaming in a fireball as the pilot desperately tries to make a landing on the motorway but unfortunately it's rush hour. They are paying for the guarantee that the bolts will ALL be up to spec and if one is found not to be after a problem then they can trace it back to a supplier, batch, factory, quality controller etc. If it all goes wrong people want to know where to point the finger and the guy in procurement wants to be damn sure he can say that he took all reasonable steps to make sure that the bolts were the right ones for the job.

 

Iain



#25 Gulfclubby

Gulfclubby

    Gulf Boy

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 751 posts
  • Name: Ben
  • Location: Bern
  • Local Club: Berner Mini Club

Posted 29 July 2013 - 01:03 PM

Some clarification on the term "carbon steel": http://en.wikipedia....ki/Carbon_steel

 

Not every steel that rusts is carbon steel and vice versa, not every stainless steel is automatically not carbon steel, if looking at it from the contents of the alloy.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users