126 replies to this topic

[lrostoke]

I agree, get a refund and buy a britpart unit from paddocks or m&m

[The Freak]

We took the 8v reading at the battery and the 10.3v reading at the starter.  Although I am sure the mech also took an 8v reading at the starter as well.  He blamed the starter and said I needed to have a boost pack to start the car...really?  I can't do that every morning.  Plus I upgraded the battery when I bought a new one.  I got a 330amp battery, so it is plenty powerful enough.  It's only a little engine...

 

Just to mix it up.  Having fitted the new dizzy to show him, the engine span freely and fired.  I looked a fool.  He said what's the problem.  I stopped the engine, went to turn the key and the slow cranking was back.

[lrostoke]

nothing do with the battery and starter motor if it works fine with the points dizzy fitted. The electronic ignition will be putting very little load on the battery, have you seen the size of the wires they ain't exactly jumper cables :)

[krusher74]

If your old dizzy works fine, then it points to this power spark one just being a pile of Chinese crap! I personally think your better off without it even if it had worked.

[zony]

Agree, better off without the hassle. I hope the call goes well on Monday. If not tell him TMF will back you all the way. He has had enough chances to put it right.

[KernowCooper]

I have spoken to Powersparks on the members behalf and I'm sure this will be resolved in what ever way is acceptable to the OP, cant understand what the problem is its running fine on points, playing up on electronic, I'd like to have seen it tried on a tempory 12v feed which by-passed the feeed from the switch, or while he was there inserted a electronic module in the standard distributor, which may happen yet if the owner gets one and trys that, which I reckon is the way forward for reliability.

[Captain Mainwaring]

Just got back from powerspark.

 

No solution.  We tried all kinds of things from replacing the module to changing the timing.  The upshot is they don't know what is causing it.  They tried to suggest I had a fault with my battery, then the starter, then the alternator.  When I explained I had replaced all of these within the last 6 weeks they were stumped.

 

We measured the volt drop on cranking.  With the new dizzy in place we got about 8 volts.  With the new dizzy,  in a retarded stance (or the old dizzy as per normal timing) it was 10.3v.   The mech enentually gave up and said he didn't know what to suggest. 

 

Eventually, I re-fitted my old dizzy and agreed to speak to Simon on Monday about getting a re-fund (it was only one of his mech guys that helped me).   It drove lovely on the way home by the way. 

 

What a rubbish outcome.  Points and condenser will have to do.

 

Cheers for all your ideas.

 

I will let you know what the outcome of the refund issue is on Monday.  I am not holding out much hope, because as soon as I mentioned that, the mech guy said he wasn't authorised to give me a refund and I would have to speak to Simon.  I said would he at least take the parts and receipt me for them (save me having to post them back)and I would speak to Simon on Monday.  No he said. 

 

 

Seems pretty clear to me what the problem is.....I'm not sure how the tech can be missing it.

[Captain Mainwaring]

lrostoke, on 30 Jun 2013 - 02:06 AM, said:

nothing do with the battery and starter motor if it works fine with the points dizzy fitted. The electronic ignition will be putting very little load on the battery, have you seen the size of the wires they ain't exactly jumper cables :)

This is why the problem isn't getting resolved. Points could be considered an analogue system - no matter how low the supply voltage to the distributor gets, the coil will produce a proportional output. With an electronic unit that's just not the case -

It's quite interesting reading another thread where the Mini ballasted coil system is condemned as being rubbish - but I think this thread illustrates that there was some logic behind the ballasted system - coil and point might hide low voltage, but electronic won't.

Of some not is the lack of information on the powerspark website - I like the guy, he's helpful and I don't think he is trying to misinform anyone, but how to put this, I really don't think they fully understand the product that they are selling - if they did, they'd know what the minimum supply voltage for the system is, and I think it's got to be above 8V

Ironically the points system will always win in a situation like this - even if the cranking voltage is ridiculously low there may be enough secondary voltage to get a weak spark on one cylinder which will start to fire on it's own, the cranking speed will increase and cranking current drop and available voltage will rise. It's why sometime you will find a car that only starts firing as you release the key - cranking speed is still sufficient and full voltage becomes available for a strong spark.

Edited by Captain Mainwaring, 30 June 2013 - 02:38 AM.

[Yoda]

Not wishing to re read the whole thread, the low voltage on cranking may well be an earthing issue that has not yet been found. I agree that electronic triggers need to see a supply within a certain range and 8 to 10 volts almost certainly is outside of this range. I would suspect then that a bad electrical joint may be the issue, but it still seems like a timing issue ( too far advanced on crank and low engine speeds) pointing to a faulty mechanical or vac advance.

 

Shame you are not nearby, i would take a look myself.

[lrostoke]

when the slow cranking occurs have you tried disconnecting the power to the new dizzy. To see what happens

[Captain Mainwaring]

Not wishing to re read the whole thread, the low voltage on cranking may well be an earthing issue that has not yet been found. I agree that electronic triggers need to see a supply within a certain range and 8 to 10 volts almost certainly is outside of this range. I would suspect then that a bad electrical joint may be the issue, but it still seems like a timing issue ( too far advanced on crank and low engine speeds) pointing to a faulty mechanical or vac advance.

 

Shame you are not nearby, i would take a look myself.

We have no idea where the timing is heading until the OP runs a temp 12V supply - using a separate battery if required to ensure 12V supply at the module. Timing could be all  over the place.

[Tamworthbay]

Not wishing to re read the whole thread, the low voltage on cranking may well be an earthing issue that has not yet been found. I agree that electronic triggers need to see a supply within a certain range and 8 to 10 volts almost certainly is outside of this range. I would suspect then that a bad electrical joint may be the issue, but it still seems like a timing issue ( too far advanced on crank and low engine speeds) pointing to a faulty mechanical or vac advance.
 
Shame you are not nearby, i would take a look myself.

We have no idea where the timing is heading until the OP runs a temp 12V supply - using a separate battery if required to ensure 12V supply at the module. Timing could be all  over the place.

Very true, at least with the points you can static time on an open circuit. Dead simple and needs nothing more than a bulb and wire. I have been told that for leccy ones you can find the magnet in the ring that fits on the distributor shaft and mark it with a drop of tippex, then static time with that dot in the middle of the module. Never tried it myself but it may be worth a go. But until the OP is sure there is sufficient voltage reaching the unit, timing is academic.

[Captain Mainwaring]

The thing running under a low voltage condition could be dropping sparks anywhere. I'm guessing that these things are three wire Hall effect, so would be easy to time to the initiator ring, but it's all pointless without proper power and 8V isn't proper power.

 

The effect of reduced voltage on the detector could be to reduce sensitivity which would drastically retard static timing - sound familiar?

 

More to the point, you've got to wonder what sort of tech powerspark has got if he doesn't catch on to the super low cranking voltage.

[KernowCooper]

I said in a post earlier up been interesting to have put a temporary 12v feed direct off the solenoid and took some readings and tried that

[Captain Mainwaring]

I said in a post earlier up been interesting to have put a temporary 12v feed direct off the solenoid and took some readings and tried that

 

You and I both...

It's frustrating to watch random swapping and twiddling without some sorts of pattern of faultfinding.

What is sure is that he only has 8V at cranking which could be enough to throw the timing all over the place (i'm guessing retarded) which will result in an engine that is a pig to start and ultimately causes even more voltage drop.

 

People are inclined to forget that in a running condition a coil will be receiving system voltage, anywhere between 13.8 and 14.2V - the OP is only seeing 8V at cranking...... 56% of what it would normally be running at.