Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Just Can't Get This Engine/carb To Tune Well (Fresh Build)...


  • Please log in to reply
62 replies to this topic

#1 colinu

colinu

    Super Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  • Location: Santa Rosa, California USA
  • Local Club: MOASF

Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:03 AM

What would cause symptoms similar to a lean lean mix other than an air leak in the inlet manifold/carb (i.e. blip throttle or raise the carb piston pin and engine tries to stall)?

 

I'm not quite pulling my hair out yet, but definitely seeking a bit of advice. I'm near the end of a 3-year long rebuild (engine and body) and started her up for the first time a few weeks ago. Cam bedded in OK at 2500rpm with a bit of guess work to get mixture 'good enough'. Now I'm trying to get the mixture and idle set with a bit more precision before taking her out on the road. Problem is everything points to an inlet manifold air leak but I can't find one.

 

A bit of background... engine is a 1380cc which seized with slipped crank thrusts shortly after I moved to the USA (brought it with me from Scotland only a few months after buying it). I stripped the engine apart, sent the block crank and head to the local machine shop for 'remedial action' then rebuilt it myself. Carb is HIF44. Cam is an AC Dodd RS+. Compression ratio is marginally over 10:1. Maniflow LCB and 1.75" exhaustIgnition is via Megajolt V3 running a map supplied by AC Dodd for running in (as was the needle recommended by AC). AC has given me a lot of advice so far, but I don't want to pester him too much and wear out my welcome ;-)

 

OK, the symptoms:

  • Cam should be able to idle at 950rpm even though it'll be a bit lumpy, but setting it anywhere near that low and it's in danger of stalling (i.e. way more lumpy than I'd expect and hunting a bit)
  • The only reasonable idle rpm I seem to be able to set is somewhere in the 1200rpm range
  • Blip the throttle, or raise the carb piston pin and the engine comes very close to stalling
  • Even if I set the mixture screw to the extreme end of rich I can't overcome the problem (and I don't want to leave it there for running in... and run the risk of bore wash!)
  • I have a AFR gauge with wideband sensor. I feel most comfortable if it's showing approx 13:1 at idle (maybe a tad rich?) but it's bouncing around a bit more than I'd expect (a good +/-1). Is that much bouncing normal? FYI... The O2 sensor is fitted in the Y collector of the LCB.
  • Blip the throttle and the AFR swings from extreme rich to extreme lean, then takes a good 5 seconds before recovering
  • As far as I can tell the carb is good. I stripped and rebuild it with an SU kit - even replaced the butterfly throttle disc a few days ago as the old one wasn't sealing as well as it should. Float is set correctly.
  • I've squirted WD40, carb cleaner, freeze spay, etc around the carb and manifold and that method shows no sign of an air leak. Only time the revs die is if I give a quick blast of freeze spray directly onto the air filter
  • Breathers... when connected the symptoms are even worse, so for the time being I've blocked off that port on the carb (FYI I'm using a vented oil filler cap)
  • Fuel is good... supplied via a Facet solid state pump and Filter King regulator (and I've set & checked it is delivering at 3.5 psi)
  • Megajolt ignition map... the idle area was originally set to 14deg, but increasing that to 18deg has helped a little
  • Megajolt VR sensor is in the correct position (i.e. No1 at TDC and the missing tooth is 90deg from the VR sensor... no offset compensation needed in the map)
  • I'm confident I set the cam timing correctly... but is there an easy way to accurately check it without stripping the engine down?
  • Engine temp seems OK (gauge showing on the cool side if anything), and oil pressure is 75psi at idle dropping to 50psi when revved)

So before I try a different HIF44 (I have a spare I can get shipped from the UK) what else should I be checking? Yes I should get this on a rolling road, but finding one here in the USA with an operator who knows SUs and Minis is pretty much impossible :(

 

 

   Cheers,

   Colin.



#2 jaydee

jaydee

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,565 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:08 AM

Its more likely that your carb needs a full strip and clean

The HIF carbs are sensible to the gum deposits of stale fuel in the jet



#3 Captain Mainwaring

Captain Mainwaring

    Camshaft & Stage Two Head

  • Banned
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,712 posts
  • Location: Indonesia
  • Local Club: Surabaya Mini Club

Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:44 AM

Especially if you started it up and there was any stale fuel in the tank.

 

The ethanol blend we have here is a bit of a pig if left in float bowls and leaves a real sticky residue - I always run the bike out of fuel before knocking the mag off because if left for a couple of weeks it turns in to congealed syrup type gum and isn't easy to clean off.



#4 colinu

colinu

    Super Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  • Location: Santa Rosa, California USA
  • Local Club: MOASF

Posted 20 June 2013 - 03:26 PM

Carb was stripped down, cleaned, and rebuilt with new parts (float, jet, needle, seals, etc) and looked OK to my "untrained" eye. Then the other day I stripped it again when fitting a new butterfly throttle disc and there was no sign of gummy deposits. Hmmm maybe time to strip it down a 3rd time... I just have the feeling I'm overlooking something blatantly obvious :(

 

Also... dashpot damper is LZX2085 with a red spring (plus I've tried using SU oil and 3-in-1). If I remove the dashpot assembly, push the piston fully up then release it, how long should it take to drop back down? I'm wondering if mine is a little slow and adding to my problems.



#5 jaydee

jaydee

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,565 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:06 PM

5 to 7 secs for the HIF44

The damper ies the correct one and your problem is not related to how fast the piston is dropping



#6 colinu

colinu

    Super Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  • Location: Santa Rosa, California USA
  • Local Club: MOASF

Posted 20 June 2013 - 06:31 PM

Thanks jaydee. I seem to recall my piston takes 6 secs to drop... one less thing for me to be worried about :)

#7 KernowCooper

KernowCooper

    Sparkie

  • Mini Docs
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,847 posts
  • Name: Dave
  • Location: The South West
  • Local Club: Kernow Mini Club

Posted 20 June 2013 - 08:04 PM

Is its just a case when its revved its excessively weak?you mention the needle was as per what AC thought ok for a weak run in period. Is the car drivable on the road and if yes what does the meter read AFR on a engine speed of 2000-2500-3000rpmif its reading really weak that might just be the cause. If you have been down the road have you done a plug reading to confirm what the gauge is saying.



#8 colinu

colinu

    Super Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  • Location: Santa Rosa, California USA
  • Local Club: MOASF

Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:12 PM

It had one short spin around the block (1/4 mile if that) the other week. Drove OK through a gears but probably didn't take it much past 2500rpm or 20mph. I wasn't looking at the AFR... I'll try another spin around the block and see what the AFR is doing.

#9 ACDodd

ACDodd

    Up Into Fourth

  • Mini Docs
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,743 posts

Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:17 PM

Did you replace the throttle spindle, butterfly and bearings?

 

Also does the butterfly have the spring loaded bypass valve fitted?

 

What ignition timing have you actually got with the vacuum connected at 1200rpm idle?

 

If the idle mix is movingg it indicates either an air leak or carb is not functioing properly. T he HIF carb when working well should not change more than +-0.1 on your gauge,

 

 

AC


Edited by ACDodd, 20 June 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#10 colinu

colinu

    Super Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  • Location: Santa Rosa, California USA
  • Local Club: MOASF

Posted 20 June 2013 - 11:17 PM

Hi AC... so I guess I haven't outstayed my welcome ;-)

Butterfly has been replaced (daylight showing past it due to what looks like some bad 'Vizarding').
Spindle and bearings weren't replaced as I could see any wear of note.
Butterfly is solid (no bypass valve).
I'll strip the carb this evening and recheck (must be the 4th time now) - and try to take/post a few pics of its condition.

If memory serves me I think the Megajolt software is showing 18deg at 1200rpm (and approx 50kPa).

Cheers,
Colin.

P.S.
AC - could you email/PM me a copy of your ACD-RS+ cam spec sheet? I've mislaid mine and with the ML Motorsport site being down I have no way to get my grubby paws on a copy.

#11 colinu

colinu

    Super Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  • Location: Santa Rosa, California USA
  • Local Club: MOASF

Posted 21 June 2013 - 07:45 AM

I didn't have time to strip the carb this evening, but did have another poke about and a quick blast around the block (can't take it for a longer trip as it's not yet registered and is missing rear light clusters  and indicators... I don't want a run in with the local plod!).

Round the block... she actually pulls pretty well and when on a constant load (and estimated 2500rpm - no rev counter fitted) there is a lot less bouncing around of the AFR - typically 13:1 give or take +/-0.5 of flutter. Back the throttle off and the AFR leans out immediately off scale and takes several seconds to recover.

I did poke around the carb when parked and idling - more spraying of various fluids at it to see if I could get a change/drop in rpm indicating a possible air leak. I set the idle low to the point of stalling to make it more sensitive to these 'tests'. Spraying carb cleaner didn't find anything, but I did notice a very small drop in rpm (not quite to the stalling point) if I sprayed freeze spray around the throttle spindle (wok side). I'm thinking that the cold momentarily shrinks the spindle seal and lets a little air past... so maybe there is a bit of wear at that end of the spindle/bearing. I'll strip it tomorrow to find out.

Stay tuned...



#12 jaydee

jaydee

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,565 posts

Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:15 AM

Weird thing about AFR at back off throttle, it should read rich for few secs due to the mechanics of the carb (piston falling as you close the butterfly)



#13 colinu

colinu

    Super Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  • Location: Santa Rosa, California USA
  • Local Club: MOASF

Posted 22 June 2013 - 06:53 PM

As promised some pictures of the carb when i stripped it down yesterday... http://s690.photobuc...IF44 Strip Down

 

I did find a little play/wear between the throttle spindle and its bushes. The throttle spindle measured at 0.310" (with no signs of oval wear), and showed approx 4 or 5 thou 'wobble' when in the bushes (i.e. seems like bush ID has worn to 0.315"). I'm not sure if that's enough to cause my erratic lean/idle problems as the outer seals don't seem to be letting air past, but I'm going to fit an oversized spindle and ream the bushes.

 

Please have a quick squint through them to see if you can spot anything odd/wrong with the carb. One question I do have... should there be any ) - rings on the shaft of the choke spindle or only the one on its outer sleeve?

 

http://s690.photobuc...IF44 Strip Down



#14 ACDodd

ACDodd

    Up Into Fourth

  • Mini Docs
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,743 posts

Posted 22 June 2013 - 07:17 PM

Only the outer sleeve. Do you have the throttle spindle haft seals fitted?

 

AC



#15 colinu

colinu

    Super Mini Mad

  • TMF+ Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 517 posts
  • Location: Santa Rosa, California USA
  • Local Club: MOASF

Posted 22 June 2013 - 10:36 PM

Not quite sure what you mean by half seals. Do you mean the seals that sit on the outer ends of the spindle (i.e. outside the carb body between the bushes and spring / end nut)? If do the yes they are fitted. I'm talking about item 48 on this diagram... http://www.somerford...age=page&id=169
If you mean some other seal then please tell me which item it is on that diagram.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users