18 replies to this topic

[Elliskwleisk]

I am fed up of Shelling out loads of money to have welding done when half the time its utter pants. So, I am looking to buy my first welder and weld for myself. I have no idea what the difference is between an ARC and a MIG and 'gas' and 'no gas' other than the brief descriptions I have read on various websites. What I am looking for is some advice on the advantages and disadvantages of each kind and some examples of the best ones to buy. I hope to soon do a full restoration myself so I need one that's up to the job of such a big task. I don't want the cheapest of the lot or the most expensive just want one that is the best for performance, user friendly, and reliability, best all rounder I suppose.

Can anyone help me out?

[alex-95]

You need a gas MIG welder, an arc welder will just burn holes. The Clarke 135te is great and easy to use. http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2ec55d4787 (You may be a ble to find it cheaper). The Gas welders are alot better than gasless, I find it's best to use argon co2 mix gas. it's cheaper to buy a big bottle (from adams gas or similar) rather than the small bottle supplied. Also a auto dimming mask is alot easyer than the otherones.

[Deejayry]

Arc technically covers any form of electric arc welder, but is often used to describe MMA (metal metal arc) this type of welder is not really suited to body restoration, it is normaly used for welding thick steel. this type of welding uses welding rods that have a fairly thick metal core coated in a flux that provides a shield from the oxygen in the air from reacting with the molten metal. after the weld has cooled there will be the remnants of the flux which should then be chipped off of the weld.

MIG (metal inert gas) is a system that uses an inert gas as a sheild (CO2 or a blend of CO2 & argon for steel work or Argon for aluminium) the filler metal is in the form of a thin gauge steel wire (or alluminium) sized between 0.6mm and 1mm which is fed to the weld by a motor. MIG welding is ideal for auto body repair as the current needed to melt the filler is much lower.

Mig welders are also available as a no gas variety which is a hybrid between MIG & MMA, here the gas shield is replaced by a flux core in the filler wire, the flux cored wire requires a little more current and is suitable for auto body work, but requires more care than traditional MIG.

Personally i would buy a MIG welder that is designed to use gas, they can be converted to use flux cored wire simply by changing the tip inside the welding torch & not supplying gas. I have a clarke 90EN which i have used for a long time in both Gas & no gas configuration, and is not a bad welder for auto body work, but i found that the control of the current is not really fine enough. on one setting it is a little low and had poor penetration and on the next setting up the weld was easy to get too hot and blow a hole in the panel, with a bit of skill and careful control of the weld time you could keep the welds nice and neat.

recently i have bought a second hand Kempi Kempomat welder which is a more professional plant it has fine control of the weldling current and wire feed as well as a spot & stitch weld timer. it was a huge improvement over the Clarke welder, but after a few weeks of work it started playing up, it was tested at a local welding suppliers who told me that one of the diodes in the rectifier had failed, i haven't got round to fixing it yet.

[Elliskwleisk]

Thanks for the replies. Is the gas not really expensive and hard to get?

[tiger99]

If it is a gasless welder, then by definition it is not a MIG, although you see them advertised as "gassless MIG" all the time. MIG = Metal Inert Gas. MAG = Metal Active Gas, so if using CO2 or Argomix you are technically using MAG, but if pure argon (you can use it on steel, if you must), or argon-helium mix, then it is really MIG.

Not to worry about that, you will be using what is really MAG, but everyone calls it MIG, for car bodywork. You will want argoshield light, or argomix or whatever various other suppliers call it, about 5% CO2, the remainder mostly argon, for best welding control on thin steel.

I would not bother with gasless, it is a very inferior process having almost all the disadvantages of MMA, except that the fairly expensive wire is fed automatically. (Mild steel MIG wire is cheap.) You can get weak, brittle welds with lots of ******* inclusions, and it is far more difficult for beginners than proper MIG, with a sensible gas mix. CO2 gas is not for beginners either, although some more experienced people here use it very successfully.

Get plenty of offcuts of 0.9mm steel to practice on, and read the tutorials on the MIG welding forum. View the videos at least several times. Buy the Haynes welding book, and study the MIG section closely, until you feel that you know exactly what to do. Don't try welding the car until you can make good, neat welds on the steel offcuts, which will come with practice. All you need is some common sense, and reasonable hand-eye coordination. MIG is the easiest form of welding for a beginner to get to grips with, apart from spot welding, which is of only very limited use in a restoration.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/mig.htm

[tiger99]

As for the gas, it is actually very easy to get, and only expensive, ruinously so, in the stupid little disposable cans that you can get in Halfords. You can rent a cylinder from BOC, as I do, or Adams, or several other suppliers. It will come nowhere near to being the highest cost in a Mini restoration. You might spend £200 on gas and cylinder rental, depending on how quickly you work. Paint, for instance, will cost you umpteem times as much if you need to get it done professionally, and body panels are not cheap either. I would guess that the welding, including purchase of a suitable machine, will be maybe 10% of your long term restoration costs, and remember that your new skill and equipment will do many other jobs too.

[Elliskwleisk]

If it is a gasless welder, then by definition it is not a MIG, although you see them advertised as "gassless MIG" all the time. MIG = Metal Inert Gas. MAG = Metal Active Gas, so if using CO2 or Argomix you are technically using MAG, but if pure argon (you can use it on steel, if you must), or argon-helium mix, then it is really MIG.

Not to worry about that, you will be using what is really MAG, but everyone calls it MIG, for car bodywork. You will want argoshield light, or argomix or whatever various other suppliers call it, about 5% CO2, the remainder mostly argon, for best welding control on thin steel.

I would not bother with gasless, it is a very inferior process having almost all the disadvantages of MMA, except that the fairly expensive wire is fed automatically. (Mild steel MIG wire is cheap.) You can get weak, brittle welds with lots of ******* inclusions, and it is far more difficult for beginners than proper MIG, with a sensible gas mix. CO2 gas is not for beginners either, although some more experienced people here use it very successfully.

Get plenty of offcuts of 0.9mm steel to practice on, and read the tutorials on the MIG welding forum. View the videos at least several times. Buy the Haynes welding book, and study the MIG section closely, until you feel that you know exactly what to do. Don't try welding the car until you can make good, neat welds on the steel offcuts, which will come with practice. All you need is some common sense, and reasonable hand-eye coordination. MIG is the easiest form of welding for a beginner to get to grips with, apart from spot welding, which is of only very limited use in a restoration.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/mig.htm

Thanks for all the great advice. Can you suggest a good machine for me to purchase?

[Elliskwleisk]

If it is a gasless welder, then by definition it is not a MIG, although you see them advertised as "gassless MIG" all the time. MIG = Metal Inert Gas. MAG = Metal Active Gas, so if using CO2 or Argomix you are technically using MAG, but if pure argon (you can use it on steel, if you must), or argon-helium mix, then it is really MIG.

Not to worry about that, you will be using what is really MAG, but everyone calls it MIG, for car bodywork. You will want argoshield light, or argomix or whatever various other suppliers call it, about 5% CO2, the remainder mostly argon, for best welding control on thin steel.

I would not bother with gasless, it is a very inferior process having almost all the disadvantages of MMA, except that the fairly expensive wire is fed automatically. (Mild steel MIG wire is cheap.) You can get weak, brittle welds with lots of ******* inclusions, and it is far more difficult for beginners than proper MIG, with a sensible gas mix. CO2 gas is not for beginners either, although some more experienced people here use it very successfully.

Get plenty of offcuts of 0.9mm steel to practice on, and read the tutorials on the MIG welding forum. View the videos at least several times. Buy the Haynes welding book, and study the MIG section closely, until you feel that you know exactly what to do. Don't try welding the car until you can make good, neat welds on the steel offcuts, which will come with practice. All you need is some common sense, and reasonable hand-eye coordination. MIG is the easiest form of welding for a beginner to get to grips with, apart from spot welding, which is of only very limited use in a restoration.

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/mig.htm

Thanks for all the great advice. Can you suggest a good machine for me to purchase?

[rodandtom]

Hi,

 

I have a Clarke 151 EN Turbo. Its been good for bodywork and thicker metal so far. I've used it with no gas and 0.9mm cored wire and with a bottle bought from Adams gas. The bottle cost about £97 first time which included the deposit for the bottle and it will cost about £35-£40 each re-fill I am told.

 

Without gas is usable but as I have it now (with gas AND cored wire) is a lot easier. Make sure you have a good earth or it wont matter if you have gas or not - the spatter will be horrendous.

 

Lots of practice is what's required.

 

RodAndTom

[Elliskwleisk]

You don't need to rent a bottle, have a look in your local yellow pages. You can usually find some one else besides BOC, who are expensive.
 
This is a good welder for the one, especially on a VAT free night:
http://www.machinema...mig160tm-welder

Is Clarke the way to go or are there better brands to go for? Are sealey welders any good?

[Tamworthbay]

If you want the best, well obviously you what be able to afford/justify the best, you won't go far wrong with a Lincoln mig. By far the best I've ever used, but you will pay for the privilege.........Your looking at 3 times the price of the above clarke mig.......

Lincoln are said to be yank made but most of the internals are Chinese and just assembled in America. Clarke will do just as well for the home mechanic at a third of the cost, but hey Dilligaf as you said elsewhere, if you want to pay for privilege, fair enough .........

Edited by Tamworthbay, 28 April 2013 - 05:29 PM.

[mini-luke]

I'm a big fan of R-Tech welders but they are more expensive than the usual clarke offerings

 

I use a GYS 162 like this http://www.weldequip...martmig-162.htm

 

Only a little more than the clarke but comes with an euro torch, stand on the back for a full size bottle and is definetly a nicer welder to use

[sonikk4]

To be honest for a noobie welder then the Clarke range will suit you and your needs. if you start to do a lot more welding then look at the more expensive models but then i have thrashed the backside out of my Clarke 135TE and it still rocks.

 

I used to have an Einhell welder which i rated highly and that was abused daily for years. Never tried a Lincoln so can't comment on them, as for internals being Chinese i bet you will find the vast majority of welders out then will have some Asian components in them. If they work then happy days.

 

I don't make my living from them but if i did then i would splash the cash. But then i would be buying a TIG as well as a MIG.

[Tamworthbay]

To be honest for a noobie welder then the Clarke range will suit you and your needs. if you start to do a lot more welding then look at the more expensive models but then i have thrashed the backside out of my Clarke 135TE and it still rocks.
 
I used to have an Einhell welder which i rated highly and that was abused daily for years. Never tried a Lincoln so can't comment on them, as for internals being Chinese i bet you will find the vast majority of welders out then will have some Asian components in them. If they work then happy days.
 
I don't make my living from them but if i did then i would splash the cash. But then i would be buying a TIG as well as a MIG.

Our last one as work was a Lincoln. It was typically American, big ugly and over rated. To be fair it made a decent job of it but was a ball ache to use. We replaced it with a Clarke 255TE and it is a joy to use. I have an abused 151 at home that has given more than decades service including three complete space frame chassis builds.

Edited by Tamworthbay, 28 April 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[sonikk4]

Without getting into a bickering competition about which is best etc having a good spread of different makes mentioned certainly from people who have used them and rate them is no bad thing no matter who owns / uses them.

 

The other thread i have issued a warning to play nicely as there was no need for the comments made. That got out of hand.

 

Ultimately as i said the Clarke will be fine for a new to welding member plus if they use Machinemart a lot then they can take advantage of their VAT free nights to save some money. Once my 135 turns its toes up i will be buying a really heavy duty one.

 

The next time i see Alan the chap i buy my sheet steel from i'll ask him what MIG he uses (he is also an artist with TIG and the car he is currently building show cases his welding skills)