173 replies to this topic

[rally1380]

 

 

Great work, this is a really interesting read. This may be a completely ridiculous question but, is there any space in road rallying for turbo mini's?

 
Normally i would say definately not. Forced induction isn't currently allowed.
 
But i think regs might be changing to allow small bore turbo'd cars.....a bit like Skoda's Fabia as an example.
 
So, currently no, but keep yer eyes open for revisions to the MSA bluebook

 

I could be completely wrong (happens often!)but I thought that proposed rule change was for factory produced turbo cars?

 

 

 

Did they not build a turbo mini....ERA ??? And how many of the supposed Cooper S's out there are true S's....and i doubt scrutineers will know the difference anyway.

 

That said, the rules are what will dictate this. Might specify only cars built after a certain date?

[keefr22]

As I said, I could be completely wrong! I thought the 'spirit' of the new rules was to allow new production small turbos, as that seems to be the way car manufacturers are going with new production models. I'd be surprised if there were 'grandfather rights' for things like ERA mini's, or any other classic aftermarket mini production model. I'd guess your certain date will be what will apply.

But then I'm constantly surprised & often guess wrong about things in the Blue Book....!!

[Cooperman]

Scrutineers are not interested in the 'purists' (Cooper 'S' Politzei) of the classic car movement. They are interested in the mechanical specification of the vehicle.
So if a Mini turns up with the correct mechanical components to make it exactly the same as a homologated Cooper 'S', then to them it is a Cooper 'S'. There was an 850 Mini back in the 60's which was turned into a 997 Cooper and was then exactly to 997 Cooper spec, then in 1965 it was turned into a Cooper 'S'. It was used in many International Rallies as a Cooper 'S' 1275 despite the log book having it as a 'Mini Minor' with engine size and number listed as 1275 cc 9FSA-Y*****. Now that car is still around and competing on Historic Rallies as a Cooper 'S'. It was re-shelled some time towards the end of the '60's as the original shell was breaking up and had been repaired several times (the RAC, Scottish & Welsh internationals did that to a Mini).
I guess that would anger the purists a bit! To me, as a competitor, it is a Cooper 'S' and always will be. I know that at least one 'works' rally car which was entered as a Cooper 'S' started life as a 997 Cooper and had all 'S' parts fitted at the Comps Department including the 'S' badges. Virtually all the racing Cooper 'S's were built from parts and were never factory built as road cars. There was a a friend of mine named Mo Mendham who built several Cooper 'S' and won the BARC Championship in a 1275 'S' which was built in his workshop from a used 850 shell. Even BMC publicised his championship win by calling it a Cooper 'S'.


The rules for turbo cars on road rallies are to enable the current small turbo engine cars, often with 3 cylinders, to compete. I'm sure they will have to be absolutely standard in terms of engine. It seems doubtful that a turbo-charged Mini will qualify and there may be a capacity limit of up to 1000 cc petrol and up to 1400 cc Diesel for small turbo standard production cars on road rallies.

[Archived4]

I heard rumours of allowing 1900 turbo diesels. But for some reason I think it was rubbish. If it isn't I'm getting an octavia vrs tomorrow

[rally1380]

My point about the Cooper S's was that if indeed the turbo rules come in, then a mini owner could say they are driving an ERA mini and thererfore get around the rule change.

 

The only issue would be if it only applied to cars built after a specific date.

 

I think the proposed rule was for up to 1400cc petrol with turbo and as smiler258 said up to 2000cc Turbo diesels (it wasn't rubbish).  But they are only proposals at the moment.  Who knows what cars will be the pick of the bunch in a few years time.

[keefr22]

Who knows what cars will be the pick of the bunch in a few years time.

Anyones guess isn't it. But it seems that each year it's getting more & more difficult to modify & prepare current cars with all the techno-gubbins they have on them & the ever more stringent MOT requirements & such. I think historics are definitely the way to go...!!

[rally1380]

 

Who knows what cars will be the pick of the bunch in a few years time.

Anyones guess isn't it. But it seems that each year it's getting more & more difficult to modify & prepare current cars with all the techno-gubbins they have on them & the ever more stringent MOT requirements & such. I think historics are definitely the way to go...!!

 

 

Too true.  But to be honest, road rallying can be done very cheap with the right car.  There are modern (last 10 years say) cars out there that can be road rallied with very little modification.  Pete's Rover 25 might not rev everyones engine, but the K series is a rev monster.....and if you get a slightly later MG model they can have 160 BHP....and a BRM version has a LSD as standard.  Or just buy a Proton GTi for £800 and away you go.

 

You can go silly and spend big bucks on Escorts (not the female variety!) but spending money doesn't always translate into having fun! You can have just as much fun without emptying your bank account. And for me having fun is the most important thing.

 

A mini isn't the most ideal car for road rallying as the technology is prehistoric compared to modern 16v stuff.  But....i guarantee you will have fun, people will respect the fact you are rallying a mini and you'll be met with a smile everywhere you go. On the right route a mini will hold its own though....as Pete Tyson who rallies a mini 'ooop north'...regular top 10 finisher.

 

Plus if you've got a mini of the right age......as Keith says.....historics is the way to go as a mini is definately competative

[tomgale]

me and the girlfriend fancy having a bit of a go at a rally this summer, but the thing is my mini is an '82, does this put me in an awkward gap where I cant run in the historic class and would be out of place in a regular one? the other option is her Morris minor, but they were hardly built for competition...

[rally1380]

me and the girlfriend fancy having a bit of a go at a rally this summer, but the thing is my mini is an '82, does this put me in an awkward gap where I cant run in the historic class and would be out of place in a regular one? the other option is her Morris minor, but they were hardly built for competition...

 

Hi there.

 

You might be right about 82 being to young for historics......by 1 year too! But, that is for the regulations for the historic rallies I do...so it may be different for others. Check the reg's for events you will have a go at.

 

Nothing wrong with a moggie minor.....A series power after all, and rear wheel drive.  For historic stuff like the Tour of cheshire we did, the Minor would be fine.  For those sort of events it isn't all about raw power...there is sooooo much more to it than that.  Time keeping, navigation and average speeds are all way more important than the car.

 

For what i call 'normal' road rallying a mini is fine.  If you have good power then there is no reason you shouldn't give it a bash. If you have any questions just ask as there are some experts on here that will have the answer for you.  I've just started this topic to try and get people interested.....seems to have worked.  Welcome to the motorsport section.

[Cooperman]

For you youngsters, the Morris Minor 1000 was used by the 'works' as a rally car before the Mini arrived, alongside the Healey 100/6 & 3000. The lovely Pat Moss, Stirling's sister, won many Ladies awards with good overall positions too in the 'works' Minors.
As an historic rally car a well-prepared Minor would be great fun. Remember, it's easy to get a useable 60+ bhp from a Minor 1000 engine by building to a 998 Cooper/A-H Sprite unit specification: Bore to 1060 cc, twin HS2 carbs, 266 cam, Sprite carbs & manifolds, 12G295 head with bigger valves. They are all 'period modifications' and are so allowed.
Then fit a low final drive ratio (Minor van ratio), a better clutch, possibly a Sprite gearbox with closer ratios, front disc brakes, better dampers and rear anti-tramp bars. 4.5" wheels would be good.
Then a pair of decent seats, a set of full harness belts, a rear roll cage (not mandatory), an alternator, a sump guard and a pair of good driving lights if the event has night sections.
Such a car would go as well as an 850 Mini and probably be more reliable.
Google 'Morris Minor rally cars' and look at the photos.

Edited by Cooperman, 06 May 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[tomgale]

I'll admit a rally minor would be all kinds of awesome, but she wants to keep it standard, plus I'm not insured on it, and I kind of want to drive, is there such a thing as a sub-1 litre class? or is my wee 998 going to be hopelessly outclassed in regular road rallies?

[keefr22]

I'll admit a rally minor would be all kinds of awesome, but she wants to keep it standard, plus I'm not insured on it, and I kind of want to drive, is there such a thing as a sub-1 litre class? or is my wee 998 going to be hopelessly outclassed in regular road rallies?

To start off, I wouldn't worry about being outclassed - just get out & do it for fun, & to get some experience! I did road rallies in the 70's/early 80's & started off with a 1300GT Escort with about the same 60bhp as Cooperman has just said you can get out of a 1 litre A series. I ended up with a close on 200 brake works Mk2 replica. I'm not sure which was the most fun to be honest! If pushed I'd probably say the 1300, as it meant you had to peddle it harder to get any pace out of it, & on the rare occasion when I did beat people it felt much better in the cheap & nasty GT!! But then, I was never going to be anywhere the same class as the top Motoring News drivers, so spending all that money building the Mk2 was probably a mistake. But it was all fun though....!!

Keith

PS - don't forget what Cooperman has also said about how important the navigator is.....

Edited by keefr22, 06 May 2013 - 03:22 PM.

[Cooperman]

If you do modern road rallies in a 998 it will teach you how to carry the speed through a corner as you won't dare slow down anywhere! I guess after you have 'moved over' in the lanes for yet another car to overtake you will want more power. Possibly by fitting a 1275 engine and then by getting a faster and more modern car.
From a more pragmatic point of view, unless you are going to do Historic events, you would be better off with a faster and cheaper car than a Mini. My standard-engined Rover 214Si was much quicker in the lanes than my 115 bhp Cooper 'S', simply because it put its power down well and rode the bumps superbly on its GAZ suspension. A Mini is becoming a valuable classic and not ideal for modern road rallies. You could prepare a Mini for Endurance rallies, i.e. up to 1400 cc with standard engine & gearbox, but to do so costs as much as preparing a Rover 214Si (or Rover 25/MG-ZR. Why risk wrecking a good classic car with no chance of success overall and at far greater cost overall.
You can build a Rover for around £2000 including buying the car. The Rover Centre in St. Albans did this to show it is possible.

[rally1380]

I'll admit a rally minor would be all kinds of awesome, but she wants to keep it standard, plus I'm not insured on it, and I kind of want to drive, is there such a thing as a sub-1 litre class? or is my wee 998 going to be hopelessly outclassed in regular road rallies?

 

I agree with the above statement made my Keith....get out and give it a go.

 

For a first off, you have zero experience so even if you have a 300BHP anything you would still be learning the ropes.  A low powered car is all you need to learn the basics of road rallying.......

 

Where to be at what time?

 

Plotting the route........the nav is the most important part of the rally machine remember!!!!

 

Sticking to the route and not picking any fails up....even if you are slower, if you get zero fails you will finish above a quicker car with fails.

 

Behaving yourself in Quiet Zones and not going through Black Spots

 

None of the above even mention the car and to be honest its these reasons why I havn't brought up car prep yet.  Prepping a mini for rallying can be a big job....but you can just put a sump guard on and fingers crossed away you go. 

 

If i was you, i'd start at the very beginning....scatter rallies.....get used to plotting and working as a rally crew. In other words...the nav is in control and all the driver does is do as he or she is told!!!!.....and fix the car when it goes pop!

 

Then move on to 12 cars....again gaining experience.

 

Then decide what next......rip the wheezy 998 out and bung a 1275 in.....or buy a 'modern' cheapo with more power.  Or if historics float yer boat, then find an earlier than 82 car.  That said, regs do change so you may find 82's are included at some point.

 

So not all doom and gloom.....a 998 mini will get you started in motorsport.  Try grass auto tests, or auto solo's???

[tomgale]

thanks guys, I think sticking the sumpguard Ive got in the garage on and just having a bash as is will be good. what would you recommend as a first rally in the cheshire/staffs area over the summer?