89 replies to this topic

[duffman]

Doesn't sound like a loophole to me- sounds like fraud.

A loophole would be something like- "you don't need a license if you have a tv for educational purposes", and you tell them you watch the news.

Your idea sounds like a bit of a scumbags cheat, they should be able to set up a device over the road from you which blocks any signal going to your house, it's blatant fraud. Like telling the police they aren't allowed on your land to arrest you after you have just committed a crime!

The police AREN'T allowed on your property unless they believe and have evidence you are guilty of an offence!! even the police need a court issued warrant unless they believe or have evidence that you are committing a crime on the premises.

who's to say its fraud? you are allowed to use your TV to watch pre recorded programs and DVD's and catch up TV services such as 4OD, Iplayer etc etc. you must be seen to be using the device to watch live as broadcast TV. I'd be happy for a van to sit outside my house and TRY to block my signal seeing as that is unlawful aggravated harassment and its perfectly legal to watch all +1 channels as they are not live broadcast.

[Dan]

As above this isn't a loophole it's fraud. Do you have a radio in your car? Because your TV licence also licenses that radio and if you don't have one then you can be prosecuted for listening to that radio. You can't actually revoke any right to approach your front door, you can turn people away from it but there are certain people (Police, bailiffs, officers of the court etc.) who you cannot prevent from knocking on your door. This sounds a lot like childish nonsense to be honest.

Who exactly are the fat cats in this situation? Who's bank accounts are you offended by? For your TV licence you get 2 national 24hr channels as well as evening channels, local channels, national and local radio and the BBC websites. For about £12.00 per month. BBC accounting is a matter of public record and you can see the accounts if you want. You seem happy to pay far more money to Sky, so that they can sell time on your TV to advertisers for a lot more money, whose accounts are not so public and who really are owned by fat cats that make a lot of money indeed. Nobody owns the BBC and takes money from it. Further because of how they get their money they are bound by law to produce programmes for everyone, they aren't allowed to simply make what's popular or what an advertiser might tell them to. The result is the BBC Natural History unit effectively. Nobody else makes any form of documentary as well as the BBC do and that is simply because they don't have sponsors or shareholders to please.

[duffman]

seems like a lot of effort to me

Not really, instead of clicking to renew, click to cancel and tell them you have removed all implied rights of access to your property, they can't legally come to your door then, if they do inform them that they are trespassing as you have removed all rights o fimplied access and you are not obliged to give any more information. by law there is nothing else they can do.

[Dan]

you are allowed to use your TV to watch pre recorded programs and DVD's and catch up TV services such as 4OD, Iplayer etc etc. you must be seen to be using the device to watch live as broadcast TV.

This is not the case. You aren't allowed to watch back anything you have prerecorded without a licence, and further aren't allowed to record it in the first place. Downloads may be different, but there are still certain downloads you may only view if you have a licence.

I think you should look into how trespass actually works too!

Edited by Dan, 13 March 2013 - 07:36 PM.

[steven]

seems like a lot of effort to me

Not really, instead of clicking to renew, click to cancel and tell them you have removed all implied rights of access to your property, they can't legally come to your door then, if they do inform them that they are trespassing as you have removed all rights o fimplied access and you are not obliged to give any more information. by law there is nothing else they can do.

my front door opens out on to a public foot path so can't really say there trespassing

[duffman]

As above this isn't a loophole it's fraud. Do you have a radio in your car? Because your TV licence also licenses that radio and if you don't have one then you can be prosecuted for listening to that radio. You can't actually revoke any right to approach your front door, you can turn people away from it but there are certain people (Police, bailiffs, officers of the court etc.) who you cannot prevent from knocking on your door. This sounds a lot like childish nonsense to be honest.

Who exactly are the fat cats in this situation? Who's bank accounts are you offended by? For your TV licence you get 2 national 24hr channels as well as evening channels, local channels, national and local radio and the BBC websites. For about £12.00 per month. BBC accounting is a matter of public record and you can see the accounts if you want. You seem happy to pay far more money to Sky, so that they can sell time on your TV to advertisers for a lot more money, whose accounts are not so public and who really are owned by fat cats that make a lot of money indeed. Nobody owns the BBC and takes money from it. Further because of how they get their money they are bound by law to produce programmes for everyone, they aren't allowed to simply make what's popular or what an advertiser might tell them to. The result is the BBC Natural History unit effectively. Nobody else makes any form of documentary as well as the BBC do and that is simply because they don't have sponsors or shareholders to please.

nonesence. there is no audio or radio licence, it was abolished in 1971.
no-one can enter your property (including gardens and boundaries) once they have been informed that you have removed implied rights to access, police and bailiffs included. The only exceptions to this are court appointed bailiffs who are there to issue a court ordered warrant. police may also be the bearer of the warrant and have no other right to enter the premises unless they believe or have evidence that you are committing a serious offence on the premises.

This isn't something i've just made up, i've researched it with various legal sources including CAB and a friend who has a degree in law and works for a solicitors.

[duffman]

you are allowed to use your TV to watch pre recorded programs and DVD's and catch up TV services such as 4OD, Iplayer etc etc. you must be seen to be using the device to watch live as broadcast TV.

This is not the case. You aren't allowed to watch back anything you have prerecorded without a licence, and further aren't allowed to record it in the first place. Downloads may be different, but there are still certain downloads you may only view if you have a licence.

I think you should look into how trespass actually works too!

read the TV licencing's own web site, you'll find thats exactly how it works.

Trespass - if you clearly state that you have removed all implied rights to access to the company and their agents then someone entering your property without your consent from said company is trespassing, if you again inform them that you have removed their implied right to access they must leave, if they enter for a third time and distract you from any lawfull activity you may be undertaking on the premises this will be classed as aggravated trespass

it is a "common law" right to approach a property, But only in so far as all people have a right to approach a front door. The issue here is whether the resident can withdraw that implied right. Subject to a warrant issued by a court, the resident's right to permit or prevent access is absolute; whether it is implied or express is immaterial.

Edited by duffman, 13 March 2013 - 08:07 PM.

[duffman]

seems like a lot of effort to me

Not really, instead of clicking to renew, click to cancel and tell them you have removed all implied rights of access to your property, they can't legally come to your door then, if they do inform them that they are trespassing as you have removed all rights o fimplied access and you are not obliged to give any more information. by law there is nothing else they can do.

my front door opens out on to a public foot path so can't really say there trespassing

If you revoke all rights of implied access then they cannot knock on your door, if you display a sign that clearly states all implied rights of access are removed for this property no sales men will call either as once its clearly stated and it is ignored it becomes aggravated trespass

[Dan]

read the TV licencing's own web site, you'll find thats exactly how it works.

OK,:

You need to be covered by a valid TV Licence if you watch or record TV as it's being broadcast. This includes the use of devices such as a computer, laptop, mobile phone or DVD/video recorder.

You are right that the radio licence was repealed a few years ago, I forgot about that. But Trespass was repealed as a criminal act in the 17th century, a little earlier. Trespass now only exists as a background factor to another crime. If what you are doing on the land in question is both lawful and reasonable it is not possible to have committed trespass. I think there is a crime known as Trespass on Land but it only applies to large groups of people such as rallies and camps. I don't suggest this is something you have simply made up, but stitching together a bundle of small unrelated points of law doesn't make something else legal and the fact is that the only legal way to not have a TV licence is to not watch or record broadcast television. Whether or not there is a way for you to get caught doing it, it is still illegal.

Edited by Dan, 13 March 2013 - 08:13 PM.

[TopCatCustom]

Doesn't sound like a loophole to me- sounds like fraud.

A loophole would be something like- "you don't need a license if you have a tv for educational purposes", and you tell them you watch the news.

Your idea sounds like a bit of a scumbags cheat, they should be able to set up a device over the road from you which blocks any signal going to your house, it's blatant fraud. Like telling the police they aren't allowed on your land to arrest you after you have just committed a crime!


The police AREN'T allowed on your property unless they believe and have evidence you are guilty of an offence!! even the police need a court issued warrant unless they believe or have evidence that you are committing a crime on the premises.

As I said- after you have committed a crime...


who's to say its fraud? you are allowed to use your TV to watch pre recorded programs and DVD's and catch up TV services such as 4OD, Iplayer etc etc. you must be seen to be using the device to watch live as broadcast TV. I'd be happy for a van to sit outside my house and TRY to block my signal seeing as that is unlawful aggravated harassment and its perfectly legal to watch all +1 channels as they are not live broadcast.

I like how a van blocking your signal which you refuse to pay for is "unlawful aggravated harassment", when you are clearly acting as a slimy crook, millions of other people pay for a TV licence and are happy to pay for Top Gear, all the amazing David Attenborough documentaries etc.

Sorry but I can't stand people like you who think they have a right to get out of paying for stuff that all us other genuine people foot the bill for, even though you obviously use or listen to the media that is produced by the BBC.

[sledgehammer]

I didn't have a TV for over 10 years - gave them away

the TV licence investigators kept sending someone while I was at work - and kept trying to arrange a visit

I ignored them

Now have a licence and TV - but bu&&er all to watch on it - may be watch it once a week

I wish the BBC was subscription

[liam_italian]

A few points here;

1. They don't need your name for a warrant to enter your property, the warrant is valid for the address, not the occupants inside.

2. They can serve a summons on you to attend court, the summons is served on the occupant

3. The police can set foot on your property, however they require a warrant to enter your premises unless the occupant inside has committed an indictable offence, in which case they can enter under Section 17 of the police and criminal evidence act.

4. The police can get a warrant to enter your address to seize property relating to an offence, for example Fraud etc.

This loophole is nothing but a load of old rubbish thought up by someone with no understanding of the law, and anyone who is stupid enough to try it will only end up getting themselves in hot water over it.

If this really worked everyone would be doing it.

Edited by liam_italian, 13 March 2013 - 08:36 PM.

[duffman]

read the TV licencing's own web site, you'll find thats exactly how it works.

OK,:

You need to be covered by a valid TV Licence if you watch or record TV as it's being broadcast. This includes the use of devices such as a computer, laptop, mobile phone or DVD/video recorder.

You are right that the radio licence was repealed a few years ago, I forgot about that. But Trespass was repealed as a criminal act in the 17th century, a little earlier. Trespass now only exists as a background factor to another crime. If what you are doing on the land in question is both lawful and reasonable it is not possible to have committed trespass. I think there is a crime known as Trespass on Land but it only applies to large groups of people such as rallies and camps. I don't suggest this is something you have simply made up, but stitching together a bundle of small unrelated points of law doesn't make something else legal and the fact is that the only legal way to not have a TV licence is to not watch or record broadcast television. Whether or not there is a way for you to get caught doing it, it is still illegal.

It is not a few stiched together, it is the law. if you have issued a notice of removal to right of implied access then it is trespass, The notice must be issued otherwise it is not, BUT if you have issued the notice OR displayed the notice on the entrance to the property then it is trespass. It is even used by local councils to lawfully ban inderviduals from public areas owned or maintaind by the council.

Doesn't sound like a loophole to me- sounds like fraud.

A loophole would be something like- "you don't need a license if you have a tv for educational purposes", and you tell them you watch the news.

Your idea sounds like a bit of a scumbags cheat, they should be able to set up a device over the road from you which blocks any signal going to your house, it's blatant fraud. Like telling the police they aren't allowed on your land to arrest you after you have just committed a crime!


The police AREN'T allowed on your property unless they believe and have evidence you are guilty of an offence!! even the police need a court issued warrant unless they believe or have evidence that you are committing a crime on the premises.

As I said- after you have committed a crime...


who's to say its fraud? you are allowed to use your TV to watch pre recorded programs and DVD's and catch up TV services such as 4OD, Iplayer etc etc. you must be seen to be using the device to watch live as broadcast TV. I'd be happy for a van to sit outside my house and TRY to block my signal seeing as that is unlawful aggravated harassment and its perfectly legal to watch all +1 channels as they are not live broadcast.

I like how a van blocking your signal which you refuse to pay for is "unlawful aggravated harassment", when you are clearly acting as a slimy crook, millions of other people pay for a TV licence and are happy to pay for Top Gear, all the amazing David Attenborough documentaries etc.

Sorry but I can't stand people like you who think they have a right to get out of paying for stuff that all us other genuine people foot the bill for, even though you obviously use or listen to the media that is produced by the BBC.

But i don't do anything illegal so why should i pay. i only ever watch top gear on the iplayer a few hours later as the kids monoplize my TV so why should i pay for a service i don't use, i hardly see it as being crooked, if YOU watch it then YOU pay for it. I don't so why should i have to.

[liam_italian]

You still need a tv licence if you use iplayer.

[duffman]

A few points here;

1. They don't need your name for a warrant to enter your property, the warrant is valid for the address, not the occupants inside.
This warrant can only be issued by a court if it is suspected a serious criminal offence is being commited

2. They can serve a summons on you to attend court, the summons is served on the occupant
The loop hole is they need to prove which occupant is responsible for the TV and if no one accepts liability it cannot be proved

3. The police can set foot on your property, however they require a warrant to enter your premises unless the occupant inside has committed an indictable offence, in which case they can enter under Section 17 of the police and criminal evidence act.
The can set foot on your property UNLESS you have a notice of removal of implied rights to access displayed.

4. The police can get a warrant to enter your address to seize property relating to an offence, for example Fraud etc.
Not disputed

This loophole is nothing but a load of old rubbish thought up by someone with no understanding of the law, and anyone who is stupid enough to try it will only end up getting themselves in hot water over it.

If this really worked everyone would be doing it.
But there are thousands doing it, infact there are many forums for people who do it to help others, many of which have been licence free for many many years. This isn't something i've seen flying around on twitter and jumped on the band wagon, if you read i have consulted a friend with degrees in law and works for a solicitor, i have consulted the CAB and done lots of research using government web sites, her majesties courts web site and many many more. its not just cobbled together. What you believe is true or law is usually just what you have been led to believe, research will prove otherwise.