52 replies to this topic

[duffman]

Also if a copper with an attitude who is knowledgeable on the regs see's it you WILL get tugged and prosecuted.

This will not happen. Coppers don't have this knowledge.

you'll be surprised, i bet there's one or two on this forum.
You always get 1 anorak that works for traffic section, and i usually get pulled by that 1 lol

I would be very surprised. Firstly, what exact law would this specific mod fail? The answer, none. It doesn't meet current legislation regarding the manufacture of cars, but he can't exactly pull you up on this.

Having been stopped more times than I care to remember, I have never met an unreasonable policeman. Certainly, I have never had a bobby look beyond the original reason for stopping me to try and find other faults. If they do, it's because you have not been humble enough, I find being pleasant a wonderful way to deal with the law.

But you wouldn't have your fogs on unless its foggy, at which point they'd be looking for defective fog lights, thats the point, and if it was right next to a brake light and not 100mm away they'd have you

How, please tell me, is a bobby going to measure the distance between your lights as you travel along the road? Lasers!!!

Not going to happen mate.

Insurance is maybe the biggest issue. But this is less of an issue than a stage 1 kit fitted without declaration and as we are almost all on classic policies, the mention of mods is not generally an issue.

well they wouldn't have to seeing as the fog would be directly under the side/brake light so they'd be touching so i would say YES very easily could happen. if they were at opposite ends of the cluster i would agree with you but, in this mod, they are right next to each other, touching so would be very very obvious

[AVV IT]

Insurance is maybe the biggest issue. But this is less of an issue than a stage 1 kit fitted without declaration and as we are almost all on classic policies, the mention of mods is not generally an issue.

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that its ok to have certain undeclared modifications because there are worse ones out there that you could have instead? At the end of the day, all material facts must be disclosed otherwise you risk your policy being declared invalid in the event of a claim. How relevant each modification may be is entirely dependent on the type of claim involved.

If you get struck from the rear in the fog whilst stationary, then an undeclared stage 1 kit will be of little relevance, but an illegally modified fog lamp could well be. Conversely, if your car leaves the road at speed on a tight bend in the middle of the day, then an undeclared stage 1 kit is going to be a much bigger issue than an illegal fog light. In a completely different scenario again, if your car were to be stolen, then the presence of both a stage 1kit and an illegally modified fog lamp will be of far less consequence than say an undeclared contrasting coloured roof and bonnet stripes. So unless you can accurately predict exactly what type of claim you are going to have, then all modifications are as important as each other.

As for the type of policy that you have, whilst specialist classic policy's are generally more accepting of modifications than standard policies are from mainstream insurers, you still have to declare each and every modification to your insurer, regardless of which type of policy you have. Just because you have a classic policy does not mean that you can fail to declare modifications.

Edited by AVV IT, 11 February 2013 - 01:40 AM.

[Wil_h]

Insurance is maybe the biggest issue. But this is less of an issue than a stage 1 kit fitted without declaration and as we are almost all on classic policies, the mention of mods is not generally an issue.

I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that its ok to have certain undeclared modifications because there are worse ones out there that you could have instead? At the end of the day, all material facts must be disclosed otherwise you risk your policy being declared invalid in the event of a claim. How relevant each modification may be is entirely dependent on the type of claim involved.

I'm just suggesting the reality of the issue, rather than dreaming about what may or may not happen. How many cars do you think are driving around with stage 1s fitted and not declared? That's my point. Of course it's wrong, but I did it when I was young. Now I can afford to declare everything.

If you get struck from the rear in the fog whilst stationary, then an undeclared stage 1 kit will be of little relevance, but an illegally modified fog lamp could well be. Conversely, if your car leaves the road at speed on a tight bend in the middle of the day, then an undeclared stage 1 kit is going to be a much bigger issue than an illegal fog light. In a completely different scenario again, if your car were to be stolen, then the presence of both a stage 1kit and an illegally modified fog lamp will be of far less consequence than say an undeclared contrasting coloured roof and bonnet stripes. So unless you can accurately predict exactly what type of claim you are going to have, then all modifications are as important as each other.

I see where you are going. But the reality is that if you have an accident, then insurance companies are known for not paying out even if you have different wheel trims fitted, whatever the cause of the accident. So the actual modification is somewhat irrelavent. But, as it happens a moved rear fog light is a tough one to find. Certinally the insurance inspectors I've come across would not have spotted it.

Also, as stated above, why is the fog light illigal? It breaks no laws moving it to the reverse light. It does not comply with legislation for the manufacture of new cars, but we don't have to abide by these legislations.

Also, just to be clear the legislation states that the seperation is 100mm from the nearest lamp. It does not specify brake lights and it does not mention lenses. It is quie acceptable for the fog light lense to be next to the brake light, as long as the lamps (or bulbs as usually reffered to) are 100mm apart.

As for the type of policy that you have, whilst specialist classic policy's are generally more accepting of modifications than standard policies are from mainstream insurers, you still have to declare each and every modification to your insurer, regardless of which type of policy you have. Just because you have a classic policy does not mean that you can fail to declare modifications.

Correct. That's what I said.

[AVV IT]

Also, as stated above, why is the fog light illigal? It breaks no laws moving it to the reverse light. It does not comply with legislation for the manufacture of new cars, but we don't have to abide by these legislations.

It does not comply with the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989, (not just the construction and use regs that are applied to the manufacture of new cars). The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations are obligatory for all vehicles on the UK's roads, but do make allowances for vehicles over a certain age, (i.e hazard warning lamps, rear fog lamps and direction indicators being optional on vehicles used before a certain date) These are the lighting regulations that that are enforced by the police and to some extent within an MOT, so yes we do have to abide by these regulations.

Also, just to be clear the legislation states that the seperation is 100mm from the nearest lamp. It does not specify brake lights and it does not mention lenses. It is quie acceptable for the fog light lense to be next to the brake light, as long as the lamps (or bulbs as usually reffered to) are 100mm apart.

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989, No. 1796, Schedule 11, Part 1, Section 2 (position), Part (d), states:

"Minimum separation distance between a rear fog lamp and a stop lamp -


(i) In the case of a rear fog lamp which does not share a common lamp body with a stop lamp - A distance of 100 mm between the light-emitting surfaces of the lamps when viewed in a direction parallel to the longitudinal axis of the vehicle

(ii) In the case of a rear fog lamp which shares a common lamp body with a stop lamp: - 100mm"


So the legislation does specifically specify stop/brake lamps. You are correct though, it doesn't mention lenses, but then as the reverse lamp in a mk IV classic mini tail light cluster is within 100mm of the brake/stop lamp any way, then converting it for use as a fog lamp does not meet these regs and therefore is not a legal modification.

Edited by AVV IT, 11 February 2013 - 03:25 PM.

[Dec1]

Right, I'm getting a bit lost with all this now.

Can I put a high level LED or simalar light centrally in the back window and as long as it is brighter than a brake light and wired as a fog light be MOT & plod compliant????

[AVV IT]

I don't think so because according to the regs, a rear fog lamp has to be between 250mm -1000mm off the ground. Even without measuring, I'm pretty sure that even the bottom of the rear window on a classic mini, is higher than that.

Edited by AVV IT, 11 February 2013 - 03:32 PM.

[Dec1]

I'll run it it as low as I can on the adjustable coil overs and measure it

[iMurray]

basically the reason the oem ones are on the rear valance is because thats the best place for it. if you dont like it, buy a 70's mini

[iMurray]

total feckin numpty... willing to bottom out and wreck his suspension over a light.

[Dec1]

Bit harsh don't you think>>>>>.you don't even know me.

Put a hell of a lot of work into this so I won't risk damaging it, I'm not as dumb as you sound !!

[iMurray]

damage? whats to damage? unless you smothered it in filler your original fog hole should be there. have you tried fabricating your own fog?

plus im pretty sure you wont be allowed a fog in your rear window, its almost certainly too high. tried helping you stay safe and legal but do what you want...

[AVV IT]

iMurray chill buddy!!... chill!

At the end of the day the point of a forum is to provide information so that people can make an informed decision about what to do for themselves. So long as they have that information and aren't under the false impression that something is safe, legal and without consequence, then ultimately it's up to them what they do with that information, regardless of how unwise we think it may be. So you may as well be nice about it, because you're certainly not going to influence anyone here by insulting them.

In terms of the standard fog lamps location being chosen because that was the best place for it, I seriously doubt it. When you consider that the classic mini was originally designed without it, then it was essentiy just an after thought/ add on solution merely to meet the new regs required of later models. It's little more than a cheap universal lamp that could be fitted with the minimum disruption and cost to the existing manufacturing process/production line. The cost of redesign, tooling and production in order to fit the lamp into what would probably be the best place and in a more stylish/less crude way, would no doubt have been unviable financially.

Edited by AVV IT, 11 February 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[scaffers]

what about looking at a motorbike for insperation or fitting one to the numberplate surround, or if poss installing it in the case of the number plate light/surround




scaff

[iMurray]

yea, apologies for the outburst, long day. good luck, ir'll actually be itneresting to see what you do

[Dec1]

what about looking at a motorbike for insperation or fitting one to the numberplate surround, or if poss installing it in the case of the number plate light/surround




scaff

Number plate light, now that sounds interesting............Ta