12 replies to this topic

[alsy]

What is road holding and handling? I've always assumed handling is all to do with the feel of the car and how well it holds the road in corners, but always heard them be spoken of as seperate things..

And to save me another post, what would be the best camber, caster and toe in for the front with 13x8 wheels?

[mk1coopers]

I'm sure Cooperman will be along shortly to explain road holding / handling soon, the best thing you can do with 13x8's is remove all the wheel nuts, remove the wheels, fit 7.5 discs, fit 10 inch wheels with 165/70/10 Yoko's

Edited by mk1coopers, 15 November 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[mike.]

Handling is how well the car responds to the drivers inputs and road holding is the grip or speed a car offers through a corner.

Camber is best kept quite small on big wheels, probably around 0.5 degree on the rear and no more than 1 degree on the front.

Big wheels will offer good grip, but because of the offset of these wide wheels on minis, they can lead to tramlining and a bit of twitchyness and a harsh ride rough roads.

I have 13x7 wheels on mine and think it drives fine, only notice any tramlining on badly rutted roads, but i'll admit the ride is quite harsh.

[Noah]

Here comes the barage of people who run 10's and then the people who run 13's and they have a big argument.

While the people with 12's watch and laugh;

On a serious note, generally speaking with a 13" wheel you'll get alot more grip, because there is more tyre unless your using Nankang tyres in Which case you may aswell use Ice blocks for wheels.

Honestly you don't really need camber for normal day to day driving, for the track I'd say around 1 Degree on the front and the same on the rear, standard mini's hold the road and handle incredibly well and you don't always need to go through the same stuff as a modern car, such as anti-roll bars, strut braces and coilovers.

[waddle]

i beleve handeling is how you say a car feels to drive, wich comes as a result of a mix of things such as how much grip it has, how well balenced it is and if its responcive, so its prety much an opinion as everyone likes difrent things.

road holding is quantifiable, you can get a meaaure by driving it round a big circle and seeing how fast you can go before it goes looses traction and goes off line , it can also be mesured in how much g it can gold before it slides.

[mab01uk]

As said with 8 x 13 wheels on a road going Mini your road holding / handling is going to be compromised from the optimum.......however some people are willing to accept this drawback if they like the wide look. If you want 13" wheels 6 x 13 is best all round for road holding / handling on a classic Mini with reasonable wide 'looks' as was fitted to later Sportpack Mini's.

Classic advert from the 1970's.

Edited by mab01uk, 15 November 2012 - 06:38 PM.

[mk1coopers]

Here comes the barage of people who run 10's and then the people who run 13's and they have a big argument.

While the people with 12's watch and laugh;

No, us '10 inchers' will happily carry on knowing the car was designed to have them :-p

[alsy]

Thanks for the advice, but I'm not changing the wheels nor wanted the ever lasting discussion, discussed.

So you reckon .5 camber on the front? With what toe, and should I be running .5 camber and between 1/8 and 3/16 toe on the rear?

Edited by alsy, 15 November 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[Cooperman]

Road-holding is the actual measure of the centripetal force which the car can generate through a specific corner. It is, in effect, a number or numbers relating to the G-force. It can be measured by driving the car in a constant circle and measuring the G-force generated.
Handling is the way the car responds to the dynamic inputs of steering, throttle and brakes on different surfaces and different road conditions.
Both are effected by suspension settings, road surface and tyres, but it is possible for a car with excdellent road-holding to have poor handling - I've driven quite a few like that.
With your very wide wheels with low profile tyres your road-holding should be excellent in the dry on very smooth roads but relatively poor in the wet or on bumpy roads. It's driver choice, of course and for Winter driving a set of 12" wheels with 145/70 x 12 tyres would certainly improve both driving & handling.
With regard to settings, front could be good at 3.5 degs caster, 0.5 to 1 deg neg camber. Rear would be good at 0 to -0.5 neg camber and 1 mm to 2 mm toe in. 3/16" toe in on the rear is too much.
I hope this helps.

[iMurray]

I have a nerdgasm everyone I read a cooperman answer.... Am I the only one?

[Mini_Magic]

Here comes the barage of people who run 10's and then the people who run 13's and they have a big argument.

While the people with 12's watch and laugh;

So true

Handling = Feel

Road Holding = Measurable

Edited by Mini_Magic, 15 November 2012 - 09:50 PM.

[alsy]

Road-holding is the actual measure of the centripetal force which the car can generate through a specific corner. It is, in effect, a number or numbers relating to the G-force. It can be measured by driving the car in a constant circle and measuring the G-force generated.
Handling is the way the car responds to the dynamic inputs of steering, throttle and brakes on different surfaces and different road conditions.
Both are effected by suspension settings, road surface and tyres, but it is possible for a car with excdellent road-holding to have poor handling - I've driven quite a few like that.
With your very wide wheels with low profile tyres your road-holding should be excellent in the dry on very smooth roads but relatively poor in the wet or on bumpy roads. It's driver choice, of course and for Winter driving a set of 12" wheels with 145/70 x 12 tyres would certainly improve both driving & handling.
With regard to settings, front could be good at 3.5 degs caster, 0.5 to 1 deg neg camber. Rear would be good at 0 to -0.5 neg camber and 1 mm to 2 mm toe in. 3/16" toe in on the rear is too much.
I hope this helps.

Thank you for the help, ill go with that setup, thanks again.

[Cooperman]

Road-holding is the actual measure of the centripetal force which the car can generate through a specific corner. It is, in effect, a number or numbers relating to the G-force. It can be measured by driving the car in a constant circle and measuring the G-force generated.
Handling is the way the car responds to the dynamic inputs of steering, throttle and brakes on different surfaces and different road conditions.
Both are effected by suspension settings, road surface and tyres, but it is possible for a car with excdellent road-holding to have poor handling - I've driven quite a few like that.
With your very wide wheels with low profile tyres your road-holding should be excellent in the dry on very smooth roads but relatively poor in the wet or on bumpy roads. It's driver choice, of course and for Winter driving a set of 12" wheels with 145/70 x 12 tyres would certainly improve both driving & handling.
With regard to settings, front could be good at 3.5 degs caster, 0.5 to 1 deg neg camber. Rear would be good at 0 to -0.5 neg camber and 1 mm to 2 mm toe in. 3/16" toe in on the rear is too much.
I hope this helps.

Thank you for the help, ill go with that setup, thanks again.

Let us all know how it goes and feels after you set it all up.