25 replies to this topic

[ClitheroeMini]

I am looking at getting new wings, or full front end on my mini as it is bubbling on the three panels. I haven't a welder but am fairly competent with one (ish) but my mate is much better with one. Only issue is I would have to buy a welder and was wondering if it would possibly be cheaper to pay a mechanic to fit it if I supply the parts?

Cheers

Ben

[ibrooks]

If you give someone a rusty Mini and some new panels then they will likely charge you more than a nice shiny new welder and costs could spiral if they find more nasties than you knew about when they start chopping the crusty stuff away.

If you were to cut the old stuff off and give them a Mini that's pretty much ready to accept the new panels then it'll be far less expensive. Assuming the new panels fit together with minimum hassle. It also means that you get to find any extra work and can make a decision as to whether to continue or whether you need to save more pennies for extra work to be done.

With a front end you should be relatively safe here as you should be able to check most of the bulkhead and inner wings that will be exposed before you start hacking the old panels off. Check the scuttle ends and closing panels though because they will be relatively easy to fix with the wings off but if you put new wings on and then need to work on the scuttle at a later date you'll be kicking yourself as you cut good wings away to get to the scuttle.

Iain

[Carlos W]

Also remove the shock top mounts and check for rot! This is an area under load and needs to be solid! Mine had a massive hole there!

[crazypainter]

welding wings on????? thing of the past! all about the bonding!

[ClitheroeMini]

Bonding them on? Explain please....

[sonikk4]

Before this goes on any further there has been a previous thread with regards to bonding panels on. It was a bit contentious.

Do remember your car was welded together and was designed to be that way. I do know about bonding and its strength BUT AND ITS A BIG BUT if you were to have an accident and the engineer was to find your car was not welded together then potentially you could get nothing and be handed a very large bill.

What are the chances??? who can say but please think carefully about this. As an addednum to this we will be bonding on a carbon fibre roof to Project Erm. This will be added to the big lissst of things being declared to the insurance company. Also there will be a roll cage added to help replace any lost strength.

[Ethel]

I'd think to bond panels they need to be designed that way, or at to least bolt on. Minis have body seams, and impact deformation, designed for spot welding - faster and cheaper if you have the tools.

[crazypainter]

bonding adhesive has been proven to be stronger than 25mm spaced spot welds, also creats a 100% water tight seal along the joins so will improve the life of the panel and as no moisture can get in in the joins unlike it does in the gaps between the spot welds its less likely to rust. its used on most modern vehicles and i have been using it for years and never had any problem with insurace companies on cars.

[ClitheroeMini]

Ha I had no idea! I had just planned on welding them in place the way it was designed I'll have a look in that other thread about bonding though- but if i was to chop the front off mine and take it to a garage with the panels I want welding on what sort of price should I expect to pay? Or should I just get a cheap welder and give it a do myself?

[sonikk4]

bonding adhesive has been proven to be stronger than 25mm spaced spot welds, also creats a 100% water tight seal along the joins so will improve the life of the panel and as no moisture can get in in the joins unlike it does in the gaps between the spot welds its less likely to rust. its used on most modern vehicles and i have been using it for years and never had any problem with insurace companies on cars.

MOST MODERN CARS. This is the critical statement here. Mini's were designed and signed off in the late 50's with a welded steel body. No bonding anywhere.

I agree modern bonding when applied correctly is as good as welding but the point i'm making here is that this process will have been part of the design sign off for the cars in question. They will have been crash tested to prove their structural strength using these processes.

On modern aircraft there are more and more bonded items rather than rivetted but these have gone through rigorous testing to prove their structural capability, a classic mini will not have had this process.

I am not trying to poo poo the idea i think its very good but there is a strict process to doing this and with the right materials etc. The same applys for welding.

If the car was built by using the bonding process then use it, if the car was built using the welding process then use it, you cannot go wrong there.

[Ethel]

Bonding relies on contact area for its strength, it will only be stronger if you spread the load over a bigger area. If the load has the effect of peeling the panels apart (so the load is concentrated on the end of the joint) a weld will be harder to peel. The wing to front panel & wing to A panel joints are prime candidates for peeling as the joint is all on one side of the panels. Even if you can make the join stronger, how would it behave in a frontal impact, you wouldn't want your wings so solid that the door frame and bulkhead get buckled instead, you're sat nearer to them. I'm not saying it couldn't be done, just that there's more to it.

[midridge2]

Look at any mini that has a front end smash and you will note that the wing to Apex panel joint has splayed out, this in effect will absorb some of the impact force, you will also note that the original Apex panel is only spot welded in a couple of places on the A post pillar, this is so that the Apex panel will break the welds off and spring out, this is to reduce the transmitted impact force..
Its standard practice in bodyshops to bond panels on, not allways to panels that were originally bonded, if insurance companies do not approve this why do they allow it?
As stated in the original post about bonding when Shifty and i contacted VOSA about they were happy to allow bonding on non structual panels on minis. what is structual on a mini is down to the individual as we all have diffrent opinions on this.

[sonikk4]

I think we have got to the same point as the last thread. As midridge2 has said we all have different opinions on what is structural on a mini and if insurance companies are happy to accept panels being bonded on then that sort of answers the question.

Now its down to personal choice and to what you would like to do.

What would be nice to know with a definitive answer what is structural and what is non structural on a Mini shell. Suspension mounting points and areas around the seat belt mounts definitely.

[Vulcan]

For me it's all about the welding. I personally rate weld above adhesive for a very simple, or perhaps obtuse, reason. I've spent more time than I care to remember removing ham-fisted patches from some very rare metal. I've had welds I could lever apart with a butter knife and replacement wheelarches held on with only a sprinkling of poor tacks. Easy enough to dispose of. The worst patch to remove was from a rover 114 which had had a wheelarch stuck on with dinitrol. Getting shot of that caused more trauma than the rust I'd gone in to replace.

[crazypainter]

we did a measured pull on metal that had been bonded against spotwelding, spot welding was done with a stanners spotwelder with recorded weld strength and the bonding adhesive with stood over twice the pull in tonnes spot welds can up easily compared to the adhesive but at the end of the day the adhesive is only as strong as the prep done to the steel and if its used right.

no one will ever agree on this topic its just my views on the subject. niether is right and niether is wrong it personal preference but technology has moved forward and carrys on moving forward and all new cars have some element of structual bonding even the new aston martins and the audi tt are bonded, each to their own!