Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Shock Absorber Problems


  • Please log in to reply
12 replies to this topic

#1 6joshh6

6joshh6

    Mini Mad

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 224 posts
  • Location: Crewe

Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:17 PM

Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone knows how to test for the function of shock absorbers. The ones on the back might be dodgy as I can push them in quite easily, even if I jolt them as you would when going over a bump, they still travel a long way without much trouble. However I can't see any leaks so I don't know if that's how they are or if they have quietly given up the ghost.

So if they are knackered, does anyone have any views on the different shocks available? I have got much to spend as all my money is lining my driving instructor's pocket. :(

So it is looking like either some standard ones, some boge 10% betters (than what I wonder) some KYB 15% betters, all oil filled, or possibly some good used oil/gas( if i'm really lucky) from ebay or similar. I am a bit reluctant to go for used and as the mini has had a new front one at some point so I think its time for new ones all round.

Any advice or comments will be greatly appreciated

Josh

#2 charie t

charie t

    Up Into Fourth

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,153 posts
  • Location: South Leicestershire sticks
  • Local Club: wreake mini wanderers

Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:42 PM

sounds nackered if it offers no resistance or changes during its travel

#3 CraigieB

CraigieB

    Stage One Kit Fitted

  • Noobies
  • PipPipPip
  • 70 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:44 PM

best way is to put them on the car and see if the suspension is bouncy

euro car parts on ebay sell brand new standard ones for £10 a corner. Changed all mine just because they were cheap to be honest

Edit:

With the rears you have to remove the tank so you may as well get something that you can trust as if you have to remove the tank with fuel in, its going to be a pain in the arse.

Edited by CraigieB, 17 September 2012 - 09:45 PM.


#4 jaydee

jaydee

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,565 posts

Posted 17 September 2012 - 09:52 PM

to be honest i dont know how to proper check them, i just check for leaks, they dont work all the same manner as i've KYB and they're a pain to compress and always return to full lenght, i've had spax and when you compress them and they stay pushed..weird stuff.

Now from my own experience, if thats your daily, a road car, g-max offer the best quality per price.
KYB gas a just are superb but very stiff, i've had them fitted years ago and i loved them, i've changed for spax building the car for road rallying and yes they're adjustable so a bit better (though i hated the plastic adjuster thingy, looks so cheap) but i always had the feeling its just a brand thing..
i was to sell the set of KYB to a mate who needs new dampers and he told me he wanted spax, just because of the name..being a bit skint atm i've sold him my spax and now i'm running on KYB again..My next will be GAZ as funds will allow.
Another strange thing about KYB gas-a-just is they somehow alter ride height, which is so weird if you thing about it, but thats what i've noticed (and other people have noticed too)

#5 bmcecosse

bmcecosse

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,699 posts
  • Local Club: http://www.srps.org.uk/

Posted 17 September 2012 - 10:28 PM

Gmax are good value for money - and work very well.

#6 icklemini

icklemini

    Up Into Fourth

  • Traders
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,982 posts
  • Location: Northampton

Posted 18 September 2012 - 05:57 AM

Can check them on a Damper Dyno! - also useful to calibrate adjustable shocks too... ;-)

#7 CMXCVIII

CMXCVIII

    Speeding Along Now

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 374 posts
  • Location: Gaps in London Traffic

Posted 18 September 2012 - 09:26 AM

FWIW it's the springs, or cones on a Mini, that provide the stiffness and bounce. The dampers are meant to do no more than that - damp out the spring's periodicity so it needn't be a problem if you can open and close them by hand.

There are other threads here where guys have set their racing shock absorbers as stiff as they could - and then found their suspension simply didn't work! Couldn't work!

by the way, if fitting KYB gas-a-justs alter the car's ride height, it suggests to me that there's something wrong with them.

#8 TimmyG

TimmyG

    Mini Mad

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 220 posts
  • Location: Swansea
  • Local Club: no

Posted 19 September 2012 - 03:27 AM

FWIW it's the springs, or cones on a Mini, that provide the stiffness and bounce. The dampers are meant to do no more than that - damp out the spring's periodicity so it needn't be a problem if you can open and close them by hand.

There are other threads here where guys have set their racing shock absorbers as stiff as they could - and then found their suspension simply didn't work! Couldn't work!

by the way, if fitting KYB gas-a-justs alter the car's ride height, it suggests to me that there's something wrong with them.


Right lets clear up something that seems to crop up very often about dampers affecting ride height..... Some people say they do, some people say they don't, but nobody says which type of damper they are talking about....so here goes!

KYB gas a just WILL increase your ride height. This is because it is a monotube design damper and has high pressure gas inside which acts on the piston rod, pushing it out. Anyone who's fitted them will know how hard they are to compress. They are not stiff 'damping wise' but feel stiff in your hands because you are also trying to compress a gas spring.
The increase in ride height will be more on the rear than the front for two reasons, 1) the rear is lighter, 2) because the damper has more leverage over the weight of the car on the back as it acts directly, i.e. wheel travel = damper travel.
On the front there may be none or little difference in ride height because the front is much, much heavier, and the weight of the car has a leverage over the damper of about 2:1. It also depends on what the ride height is to start with.....if its lowered, the effect will be bigger because the damper is more compressed and therefore is imparting a greater spring pressure than if you were fitting them to a standard or increased ride height for example. Incidently then, this type of damper will slightly add to your spring rate, again noticable to a greater degree on the rear due to leverage/weight issue compared to the front.
If you fit these dampers to replace worn standard ones you wont notice the fronts affecting the ride but the rear firms up substantially. Not harsh but firm.

Bilstein SPORT dampers are also monotube so the above will also be true for these to a greater or lesser degree. (depends on the gas pressure used and the piston rod diameter) At one time there were also some De Carbon ones around too that Avonbar sold.....

As far as i'm aware all other dampers generally available for the mini (i.e. not silly money) are TWIN TUBE design and will not affect ride height, whether they be plain oil, or low pressure gas. (the gas will still push the damper rod out but with hardly any force)

To the original poster, if your dampers are feeling and sounding like a slapper's sloppy ******* (very easy to pump in and out, with plenty of squelching) then you need to get new ones for sure. You won't believe the difference it makes to ride and feel of the car. Sachs/Boge are very good actually, oe on many cars inc VW. Unless you only ever drive gently around town i'd opt for gas ones as the oil-only ones will turn into quivering sloppy minges in minutes if shown a country road at speed!

Having said that, slapper's can be fun!.... :)

Hope this has been of some help

Tim

#9 TimmyG

TimmyG

    Mini Mad

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 220 posts
  • Location: Swansea
  • Local Club: no

Posted 19 September 2012 - 03:42 AM

Hi guys, I was wondering if anyone knows how to test for the function of shock absorbers. The ones on the back might be dodgy as I can push them in quite easily, even if I jolt them as you would when going over a bump, they still travel a long way without much trouble. However I can't see any leaks so I don't know if that's how they are or if they have quietly given up the ghost.

So if they are knackered, does anyone have any views on the different shocks available? I have got much to spend as all my money is lining my driving instructor's pocket. :(

So it is looking like either some standard ones, some boge 10% betters (than what I wonder) some KYB 15% betters, all oil filled, or possibly some good used oil/gas( if i'm really lucky) from ebay or similar. I am a bit reluctant to go for used and as the mini has had a new front one at some point so I think its time for new ones all round.

Any advice or comments will be greatly appreciated

Josh


Dude my best advice what ever you do dont buy anything like this off ebay. Definately not second hand either but also dont get tempted by cheapo 'tuv' 'german quality' 'sports' shocks etc, been there done that with my van and its all a pile of crap. And to be honest, with mini's there's just no need anyway because good quality branded shocks are available from reputable people such as minispares for very reasonable money....best of luck and enjoy the ride when its done! Also see my post above for info about what shocks are what :)

Tim

#10 jaydee

jaydee

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,565 posts

Posted 19 September 2012 - 10:27 AM

KYB gas a just WILL increase your ride height. This is because it is a monotube design damper and has high pressure gas inside which acts on the piston rod, pushing it out. Anyone who's fitted them will know how hard they are to compress. They are not stiff 'damping wise' but feel stiff in your hands because you are also trying to compress a gas spring.
The increase in ride height will be more on the rear than the front for two reasons, 1) the rear is lighter, 2) because the damper has more leverage over the weight of the car on the back as it acts directly, i.e. wheel travel = damper travel.
On the front there may be none or little difference in ride height because the front is much, much heavier, and the weight of the car has a leverage over the damper of about 2:1. It also depends on what the ride height is to start with.....if its lowered, the effect will be bigger because the damper is more compressed and therefore is imparting a greater spring pressure than if you were fitting them to a standard or increased ride height for example. Incidently then, this type of damper will slightly add to your spring rate, again noticable to a greater degree on the rear due to leverage/weight issue compared to the front.
If you fit these dampers to replace worn standard ones you wont notice the fronts affecting the ride but the rear firms up substantially. Not harsh but firm.

Bilstein SPORT dampers are also monotube so the above will also be true for these to a greater or lesser degree. (depends on the gas pressure used and the piston rod diameter) At one time there were also some De Carbon ones around too that Avonbar sold.....

As far as i'm aware all other dampers generally available for the mini (i.e. not silly money) are TWIN TUBE design and will not affect ride height, whether they be plain oil, or low pressure gas. (the gas will still push the damper rod out but with hardly any force)


Thanks for clarifying this Tim, so i'm not paranoid and theres actually a connection between KYB and ride height. Good explanation,

#11 TimmyG

TimmyG

    Mini Mad

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 220 posts
  • Location: Swansea
  • Local Club: no

Posted 19 September 2012 - 01:14 PM


KYB gas a just WILL increase your ride height. This is because it is a monotube design damper and has high pressure gas inside which acts on the piston rod, pushing it out. Anyone who's fitted them will know how hard they are to compress. They are not stiff 'damping wise' but feel stiff in your hands because you are also trying to compress a gas spring.
The increase in ride height will be more on the rear than the front for two reasons, 1) the rear is lighter, 2) because the damper has more leverage over the weight of the car on the back as it acts directly, i.e. wheel travel = damper travel.
On the front there may be none or little difference in ride height because the front is much, much heavier, and the weight of the car has a leverage over the damper of about 2:1. It also depends on what the ride height is to start with.....if its lowered, the effect will be bigger because the damper is more compressed and therefore is imparting a greater spring pressure than if you were fitting them to a standard or increased ride height for example. Incidently then, this type of damper will slightly add to your spring rate, again noticable to a greater degree on the rear due to leverage/weight issue compared to the front.
If you fit these dampers to replace worn standard ones you wont notice the fronts affecting the ride but the rear firms up substantially. Not harsh but firm.

Bilstein SPORT dampers are also monotube so the above will also be true for these to a greater or lesser degree. (depends on the gas pressure used and the piston rod diameter) At one time there were also some De Carbon ones around too that Avonbar sold.....

As far as i'm aware all other dampers generally available for the mini (i.e. not silly money) are TWIN TUBE design and will not affect ride height, whether they be plain oil, or low pressure gas. (the gas will still push the damper rod out but with hardly any force)


Thanks for clarifying this Tim, so i'm not paranoid and theres actually a connection between KYB and ride height. Good explanation,


Nah your definately not paranoid! just to clarify, its only the gas-a-just KYB's that will do this......the other cheaper ones the gas or the oil ones will not.

Glad i could be of help :)

#12 bmcecosse

bmcecosse

    Crazy About Mini's

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,699 posts
  • Local Club: http://www.srps.org.uk/

Posted 19 September 2012 - 02:19 PM

The gas dampers do not contain a gas 'spring' as such - they are simply pressurised with gas to prevent aeration in the working fluid inside the damper. Yes - they will 'spring' open when released, but the lift effect on the suspension is pretty much negligible. Any perceived change in ride height after fitting new dampers is simply the suspension needing to settle down again to normal ride height after being disturbed.

#13 TimmyG

TimmyG

    Mini Mad

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 220 posts
  • Location: Swansea
  • Local Club: no

Posted 23 September 2012 - 09:53 AM

The gas dampers do not contain a gas 'spring' as such - they are simply pressurised with gas to prevent aeration in the working fluid inside the damper. Yes - they will 'spring' open when released, but the lift effect on the suspension is pretty much negligible. Any perceived change in ride height after fitting new dampers is simply the suspension needing to settle down again to normal ride height after being disturbed.

Are you aware of the differences between conventional twin tube dampers and monotube dampers and which ones are what? The high pressure gas inside the monotube shock WILL act as a spring. Infact the low pressure gas inside a twin tube shock will also act as a spring but its effect is so small its not worth thinking about for our purposes. Its basic physics though, and i'm surprised about your reply above, given your interest in steam engines and the fact they work on this principle. Relatively low pressure steam acting on the piston area produces huge amounts of force does it not? Pressure multiplied by area, so for example if we have say 40 bar inside the monotube shock,(which is about correct i think) and say the piston rod diameter is 5/16ths". 40 bar is approximately 600 psi in round numbers, or pounds per square inch (again i'm sure you know this) So, pi times radius squared = cross-sectional area of the piston rod. 5/16ths = 0.3125. Half that squared gives us 0.0244.
0.0244 times 3.142 (pi) = 0.0767. 0.0767 times 600 = 46 lbs of force produced by the damper! Or 21 kgs in new money. So on the rear of a mini where the dampers are acting directly with the weight of the car thats a total of 42 kgs of lifting force. No, it isn't designed to be a spring but the design can't avoid it and therefore it will have an effect on ride height to varying degrees depending on factors i mentioned in my previous post.

What i'll do when i get time is to put a couple of different dampers on a weighing scales on a pillar drill and measure the force required to hold the damper at various openings, then work out the spring rate. I'll post the results on the forum for all to see. I will also then put a jack under my mini with a weighing scales and see how much the ride height increases when 'x' amount of weight is taken off. I hate guesswork!

Edited by TimmyG, 23 September 2012 - 10:05 AM.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users