907 replies to this topic

[rally1380]

I haven’t read the current rules on it but surely safety should should overrule “period” modifications if they can be called that. I will have to find out my blue book and do some homework

 

There are definitely things you are not allowed to do with regards to the cage in historics.  I'm pretty sure you can't connect the A pillar and the roll cage with one of those strengthening pieces with holes in like the modern stage boys and girls do. If I want to connect the A pillar to the cage, my intention is to do it with lugs and bolts so if the scrute does pull their face I can simply take the bolts out and the cage is no longer connected.  And i'm pretty sure triangulating to the front bulkhead and subframe mounts is a bit of a grey area too. 

 

Certainly things I need to get worked out before biting the bullet and paying for a cage to be made.

[GraemeC]

That junior cage looks good, it was about time someone made one with the hoop further back making it much easier to get modern seats with wider wings in.

I too am sure tying in to the A and B isnt allowed. I also think going through either bulkhead isnt either, but I cant remember where I read that, or the exact wording.

Edited by GraemeC, 31 January 2018 - 07:17 PM.

[rally1380]

That junior cage looks good, it was about time someone made one with the hoop further back making it much easier to get modern seats with wider wings in.

I too am sure tying in to the A and B isnt allowed. I also think going through either bulkhead isnt either, but I cant remember where I read that, or the exact wording.

 

Agree. Where a 'normal' bolt in SD cage sits the seats have to sit where they fit really rather than where you want them.  That's kinda why I posted the photo of the Harry Hockley cage as moving the 'B' hoop forward might actually create more room....maybe? 

 

Bulkheads is a funny one because the Custom Cages Historic cage does pass through the rear bulkhead I think...or at least it has in some examples I have seen.  Not really sure why they don't just fix to the top of the arches like most cages do but I suppose their thinking is it links in with the rear shock 'towers' the way they do it.

 

I've got loads to decide on with this one!!!!!

[GraemeC]

On HRCT site:

Important. Page 310. Safety 299. The roll cage bars must remain within the confines of the passenger compartment and not be used as a suspension pick up point bracing unless the competitor can prove that this was done in period to the specific model. The fitment of extensions sections up to either the front or rear bulkheads is not allowed.........

It does also seem to imply on the site that you can tie into pillars (although the it may contravene FIA regs). However these are to be as shorter welded areas as possible, it is not acceptable to have gussets welded into the windscreen pillars that are the length of the pillar.

Edited by GraemeC, 01 February 2018 - 12:02 PM.

[GraemeC]

Oh, and I wouldnt want the main roll hoop to be in front of the wings of the seat if it were me!

[rally1380]

Oh, and I wouldnt want the main roll hoop to be in front of the wings of the seat if it were me!

 

How come?  When my car was built, I had the wing of the seat in between the main hoop and the diagonal that went back to the arch......From memory (I need to check the photos though) it was pretty much the only place I could fit the seats.

 

From HRCT - "The fitment of extension sections up to either the front or rear bulkheads is not allowed."  So the SD weld in cage (a few posts up and the one used by minisport for the junior car) design that has this feature has to be altered and therefore the homologation void??  Minefield this cage stuff.

[GraemeC]

I just wouldn't - to me the only thing that should be within the envelope of the seat is me (and a harness). Anything else and there's hard metal bits far too close to my body for comfort.

I don't think I could get my seats to fit in that area you describe if I wanted to, maybe my old ones would've - I can't remember.  Even at 6'4" I think that would've put the seat too far back for me though, I normally want it about where the hoop is!

 

I'm not saying Mr Loveridge's rules make sense (to be honest a lot of them don't to me) and I'm not surprised if the designers and manufacturers of safety equipment don't follow them.  Where the person who spends the money stands is a different matter, but I would hope safety and pragmatism would always be high up the scrutineers agenda.

[rally1380]

I just wouldn't - to me the only thing that should be within the envelope of the seat is me (and a harness). Anything else and there's hard metal bits far too close to my body for comfort.

I don't think I could get my seats to fit in that area you describe if I wanted to, maybe my old ones would've - I can't remember.  Even at 6'4" I think that would've put the seat too far back for me though, I normally want it about where the hoop is!

 

I'm not saying Mr Loveridge's rules make sense (to be honest a lot of them don't to me) and I'm not surprised if the designers and manufacturers of safety equipment don't follow them.  Where the person who spends the money stands is a different matter, but I would hope safety and pragmatism would always be high up the scrutineers agenda.

 

 

I've just had a gaze through my old photos.....seems I got a little confused with where the seats were placed. It was the gab between the hoop and the B pillar where my seat 'wings' were forced to sit.....literally no where else they could have gone as in front of the B pillar is way too close and as you say, behind the main hoop is too far back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you have also said....making or buying a cage with the main hoop a bit further back would be good as it will allow a bit more flexibility with seat options and where they are placed....in theory.

 

 

Yeah, the rules laid out are a bit odd. I think cages should be 'free' from some constraints as safety should be paramount and not allowing some hook ups with bulkheads does make the whole job a little less safe.....although having some cage is better than none.  Looking at all of the options, I think I 'have' to go down the route of making my own if I want everything on my shopping list.

Edited by rally1380, 02 February 2018 - 09:23 AM.

[GraemeC]

Yes, that's where most seats end up! It would be nice to get that hoop further back and away from your head though.

 

I think the problem with the 'Historic' cages is that they are designed to suit the FIA regs as there is a better market there and presumably they allow for connection to bulkheads.  Our 3rd party regs are never going to hold as much clout.

That said, I'd be very surprised if any scrutineer would kick you out for having an 'off the shelf' homologated cage, however many extra bits it had.

[rally1380]

That said, I'd be very surprised if any scrutineer would kick you out for having an 'off the shelf' homologated cage, however many extra bits it had.

 

Luckily I know 2 very knowledgeable scutes who are clued up with the historic side of things.....trouble is one has advised I get the SD weld in cage....might reply to him now saying if I fitted it as per the cage design and homologation, i'd actually fall foul of the HRCR technical rules and see what reply I get.

[DEPS]

Just for the record. I was looking at the HRCR junior cup out of interest for my son, not that we could afford it!! I had a look at the car that was on show at the NEC and got some details for the junior series. Basically you have to have a safety devices cage, either the multipoint bolt in or the weld in. Pretty sure the car on show was tied into the A pillars. Also noted that the big box cross member on the floor had been completely altered on the drivers side. It had been made narrower to allow for the seat to be moved further forward, but be kept lower down in the car.

 

Personally think they have got the spec wrong for the junior cup and made it far more expensive than it need be, but that is another point entirely!! Think they only have one registered entrant so far.....

[rally1380]

Just for the record. I was looking at the HRCR junior cup out of interest for my son, not that we could afford it!! I had a look at the car that was on show at the NEC and got some details for the junior series. Basically you have to have a safety devices cage, either the multipoint bolt in or the weld in. Pretty sure the car on show was tied into the A pillars. Also noted that the big box cross member on the floor had been completely altered on the drivers side. It had been made narrower to allow for the seat to be moved further forward, but be kept lower down in the car.

 

Personally think they have got the spec wrong for the junior cup and made it far more expensive than it need be, but that is another point entirely!! Think they only have one registered entrant so far.....

 

That's interesting.

 

I wonder why they have specced the SD cages?  Maybe they are offered at a reduced price?

 

In what way do you think the Junior Cup is wrong?  I'm just interested to hear your thoughts really as I've not looked into it as i'm well past that age...ha ha.....although if it's still around in 15 years time I might be interested in building a car for my son.

[MIJ]

I think you buy a kit from Minisport to build the car? I agree it seems a tad expensive for what it is. Especially when you consider you can buy a fully prepped formula1000 micra or similar for half the price...and arguably it would be more competitive and reliable..

[rally1380]

It's funny how some things give you the kick up the backside that is needed to make a step in the right direction isn't it?  For me it has been our utility provider.....odd one really.  And 'how', I hear you all ask, does a utility provider, provide the needed kick up the rear end??  Simple really.......smart meter installation and the fact my shell is parked very much in the way.

 

If this situation was presented to any 'normal' person, they may have just moved a few bits around the garage, invited their strongest mate over and shifted the shell over a touch to make room for the meters to be installed......far, far too easy that solution for me. 

 

Instead, I decided to raid my store of 'acquired' steel box section and fabricate myself a nice shell skate (or dolly) to ensure my pride and joy of a shell remains in tip top condition.  Yes, I know a pallet and a few castors would do the same job, and I have employed that method in the past, but I have got a very rusty mk2 shell awaiting restoration and I want to build a kind of jig for that one so this is a sort of pre-emptive strike towards that goal too.  Plus, the thought of dumping a brand new, dent free shell onto a pallet and dragging it around really doesn't sit well with my inner O.C.D. - any dents into this new shell are to be done on the rally stage, not the garage floor!

 

 

 

 

 

Measurements taken and a rough frame was knocked up. I have made the 'stilts' removable to allow for modification and also if the MK2 shell requires a different mounting method, I can remake these small arms instead of changing the whole job. 

 

 

 

 

 

My original plan was to bolt the dolly to the subframe mounting points, but I thought better of that idea when I remembered I will be using this 'dolly' to transport the shell to the welders to have the roll cage fitted and if we manage to drop the shell and dolly combo in any way, or it gets knocked and damages any captive threads I would swear quite a bit.  So instead, I've used 4 brackets that are at either end of the sills - i'm assuming these are something to do with the manufacturing process rather than jacking points...bit flimsy for that task.  These will get cut off in the future anyway as I can only see these as rust magnets more than anything else.

 

 

 

 

 

^^^ Shell now fully mobile and not sat sulking on axel stands under a dust sheet any more - a step in the right direction I think?

 

 

 

 

In other news.......I attended Knutsford & District Motor Club's 60th Anniversary Awards Dinner on Saturday night.  Even though I've had a quiet time on the competing front of late due to obvious restrictions, I had competed a little in 2017 and managed to not only win the Drivers Road Rally Championship, but the Navigators RR championship too....and I'm the first person to do this in the same year in the club's 60 year history....proud moment.  My wife picked up 3rd overall Navigator in the RR Championship too.

 

 

Edited by rally1380, 26 February 2018 - 03:26 PM.

[keefr22]

Well done on the awards Dave, neat piece of history to make too!

 

And that dolly is a very nice bit of fabricating!

 

Keith