48 replies to this topic

[zef]

At the end of the day, anything used in a safety-critical application is either suitable or unsuitable. If it is unsauitable and not fit for purpose, it is covered by product liability laws, amongst other things. It does not specifically have to be listed in the VOSA rules for that to be so.

Please provide evidence other than your opinion that copper brake pipes are not "fit for purpose". The evidence should state explicitly that copper brake pipe is not fit for purpose. Anything else is just opinion and therefore should be taken as such.

[minimissionary]

The fact that copper brake pipes have been made illegal in Australia (and without research, I can only assume other counties too) pretty much indicates to me that it's probably not a good idea to use it. Whether this is to do with extreme temperatures adding to the hydraulic pressure or not, I would much rather use Kunifer pipes over copper for my own peace of mind.

Why use something inferior on your brake system? The worst kind of false economy.

Edit: By the looks of things, this applies to Kunifer pipes as well. Bundy is the only legal kinda in Oz. Don't know where to stand anymore

Edited by minimissionary, 18 December 2011 - 11:22 PM.

[tiger99]

I saw the other day on another forum that Kunifer is legal in Australia, but copper is not. It would be nothing to do with temperature, which has no effect on the hydraulic pressure. It is purely the fatigue properties of the different metals.

[tiger99]

zef,

In my profession I have to work with product liability laws, health and safety laws, and lots more, every single day. Nowadays anything you do, even in ignorance, which endangers other people can get you into very serious trouble. I happen to be a professional engineer.

But if you insist on having hard facts, see here: http://www.copper.or...brake_tube.html

That has been posted here quite recently.

I also suggest that you read the forum policy, which does not encourage giving out information which may be dangerous.

[minimissionary]

We've been spelling 'Cunifer' wrong the whole time

[zef]

Hard facts from a US based website which has no relation to UK legality.

Also the forum rules apply to you too "first-hand and factual" would also apply. You have not provided a shred of evidence to PROVE that copper brake pipes are illegal in the UK. You might not like them and I'm not saying they are perfect, I AM saying that stating on a forum they are illegal, without evidence, is misinformation.

[tiger99]

Yes and no? The alloy is properly called Cunifer (Cu Ni Fe = Copper Nickel Iron), but I am fairly certain that one of the early manufacturers used the trade name Kunifer in the late 1970s when it first became available.

But all the "cupro-nickel" pipe sold as brake pipe seems to be the right stuff, so the name is not as important as the material.

[zef]

As to giving out information that is dangerous I have never willingly done that, nor would I. The OP question should probably be answered thus.
Copper brake pipes are not illegal in the UK but there are some questions as to their possible safety. As with all things in life use your own judgement. As you are questioning their safety then you obviously have doubts about them and would probably be therefore happier using another material.

[minimissionary]

Hard facts from a US based website which has no relation to UK legality.

Also the forum rules apply to you too "first-hand and factual" would also apply. You have not provided a shred of evidence to PROVE that copper brake pipes are illegal in the UK. You might not like them and I'm not saying they are perfect, I AM saying that stating on a forum they are illegal, without evidence, is misinformation.

The fact of the matter is, the evidence strongly suggests that copper brake pipes are not up to the job of being put under the high pressure of a hydraulic system. Legal or not, it would be foolish to fit them to any car when far more suitable alternatives are widely available.
There is clearly a flaw in the use of copper piping, and to state otherwise is dangerous. To question evidence on it's legality is paled into insignificance by the dangers of using inferior materials in a high pressure hydraulic system.

Edit: Fair play to the above post.

Edited by minimissionary, 19 December 2011 - 12:53 AM.

[tiger99]

zef,

I suggest that you read up on product liability law, and health and safety law, and then decide whether a material with dangerous fatigue properties is legal in a brake system. As I said, it does not have to be explicitly listed anywhere, in fact that would be impossible, because the list of materials not fit for purpose would be huge. Every material is insuitable or even dangerous in the wrong place. The laws require people who design and manufacture just about anything to be responsible and select their materials properly.

It is part of every engineering professional's job to see that they do not do the wrong thing, or give out dangerously misleading information. But I can tell that you are not an engineering professional, or you would know that.

[zef]

Then WHY the hell is copper brake pipes available for sale in the UK? Surely the manufactures who make the stuff to BS 2871 pt2 would take the stuff off the market or state that it is unsafe for use in braking systems for fear of being taken to court.
So what you are saying is that I could buy copper brake pipe and then sue the manufacturers and suppliers as the product is "unfit for purpose"?

[tiger99]

By the way, who quoted a US web site? copperinfo.co.uk is very clearly based in the UK.

In general terms, it is unwise to rely on any safety infromation from the US anyway. Their laws are very lax compared to ours. For example, they have no notion of anything like our Health and Safety at Work Act, and not much idea at all about protecting the consumer. Again, something that I encounter daily at work.

[tiger99]

zef,

The answer is much the same as why tobacco is on sale, when it is known to kill people. The law does not, cannot, and never will be able to list every single material which should not be used in particular applications. The BS for copper tube, like every British Standard, does not say that the product is safe in any particular application. It merely defines its properties. It is up to the designer of the equipment incorporating it to ensure that the entire system is safe. If you fit it to your car, you make yourself the system designer, and become legally liable for the consequences.

[zef]

The link provided was US based.
http://www.copper.or...brake_tube.html

[minikidx14]

How can people spot the difference between pure copper pipe and other materials?