35 replies to this topic

[mini_legend]

I can't seem to fully understand this, but its an EU forced idea, so will be a load of boll*cks, much like prisoners votes and human rights for terrorists!! But don't comment on that please, it isn't the point. I have heard that to come in line with the EU MOTs on new cars will only be required after 5 years from new, not 3, and other cars will only need an MOT every 2 years? Is this correct.
As for 'historic' there is no way they can set a scale on the age of a classic/historic. It's rubbish. When free tax was introduced for cars over 25 years old, it was quickly scrapped to cars pre 72 only!! it's all about making money and getting rid of old cars and filling the roads with whining electric engines (another rant to follow on that at the end of this point) If a date is set, people are going to be selling log books, stealing VIN numbers, faking plates etc etc going to all lengths to register their vehicles as pre 'x' date, which is gonna cause a lot more problems!!
back to the point about new, and electric cars, like the dubai comment, about no car over 10 years old being allowed without discretion. Firstly, producing a new car uses hundreds times more non renewable resources than running a classic for the rest of your life. Secondly, where does electricity come from? Coal, a fossil fuel, non renewable much like oil, and like oil, about 200 - 500 years supply left!! Ok, so let's move onto bio fuels and Hydrogen. Well hydrogen storage is far to dangerous at the minute, hence limited usage and biofuels for electricity are pretty much taking a step 10 years back. the worlds population, by 2050 is predicted to have doubled from victorian population of the world, which means more food is needed to feed the population!! Ohh wait, we are growing 'electricity'!!
Rubbish.
I'll stop now because I could keep going alllllllllll day long, and I am a bit off topic, but my point stands!
Classics are still the way forward!
Plus, who wants to rev a battery when you can rev a nice petrol engine

JK

PS, roll on the abusive replies !!

[surfblue63]

I think it is the final nail IF APPROVED of

1) Lower value 'Classic' cars being legislated out of existence

2) Car modifying being legislated out of existence without an actual document saying so

3) I take it everyone knows about the new mOT regs coming in force in 2012due to the requirements for an across EU standardised safety standard , just the same as EVERY cars sold within the EU will have to meet EUWVTA ( type approval banning vehicles from sale that are NOT manufactured within the EU )

4) In real terms if a car has to meet the fFVA specs to be allowed Historic status ,many will not meet that criteria and there is no alternative registration class.

5) Other legislation will be based on the FIVA proposlas as it is already in Germany. You are not allowed into a major city operating under an Emission scheme in a Historic vehicle UNLESS it has a FIVA 'passport' which shows its true historic status.

ACE I have a couple of questions and responses

1) How will lower value cars be "legislated out of existance"? What puts most lower value classic out of existance is the increasing cost of maitenance, fuel and insurance. It is not the legislation. What the FIVA are proposing does not affect these cars directly.

2) Car modifying is becoming more difficult every year as the rules are tightened up. I'm surprised you did not quote Germany with their strict rules on accessories having to pass the TuV test. Again FIVA are not trying to stop modification, they just want it recorded.

3) "( type approval banning vehicles from sale that are NOT manufactured within the EU )" Does this mean that cars made in China, Japan, Korea and Malaysia will no longer be sold in the EU? I think that is a load of rubbish as it would cause on hell of an international trade war.

4) If a Pre 1973 car currently has not got historic status then it is taxed under the PLG class and pays the current fee for that class.

5) This country has similar systems already in place, it is called the congestion charge. In simple terms, if you have a private petrol car then you pay, if you have a low emmissions car the you don't. There are also a few towns and cities which have a complete ban on private cars, not just historic ones.


I still think you are missing the point that the FIVA are trying to put across. They want to preserve historic vehicles as much as is practically possible, they also want the right to use them as well. I am sure there are plenty of members in the European Goverments, with vested interests in teh motor industary, who would like to see all cars scrapped once they reach a certain age. They say it is for the enviroment, but we all know that it really is to line their pockets with share dividends and back handers. The FIVA have put forward a plan so that historic vehicles can remain in use and not be consigned to museums and books.

[aceadvice]

"ACE I have a couple of questions and responses

1) How will lower value cars be "legislated out of existance"? What puts most lower value classic out of existance is the increasing cost of maitenance, fuel and insurance. It is not the legislation. What the FIVA are proposing does not affect these cars directly.

You asked for an personal OPINION, that is my reply. On a PERSONAL level I can see only top end car owners having the money and time to qualify and follow the regs . Paying for the correct period parts and methods of restoration are different to the repairs that most do to their car, even FIVA differentiate if you read their PROPOSALS

2) Car modifying is becoming more difficult every year as the rules are tightened up. I'm surprised you did not quote Germany with their strict rules on accessories having to pass the TuV test. Again FIVA are not trying to stop modification, they just want it recorded.

Yes but we have the 8 points sytem that allows ANY modifications the owner choses not those dicated to them. Beyond that limit we have our own UK BIVA to assess and register cars .FIVA are looking at MINIMUM modifications not free expression

3) "( type approval banning vehicles from sale that are NOT manufactured within the EU )" Does this mean that cars made in China, Japan, Korea and Malaysia will no longer be sold in the EU? I think that is a load of rubbish as it would cause on hell of an international trade war.

I should have qualified ,cars not maufactured to EUWVTA specifications , ie you could not import a new American car . http://www.the-ace.o...d-IVA-HIVA.html

4) If a Pre 1973 car currently has not got historic status then it is taxed under the PLG class and pays the current fee for that class.
Incorrect any pre 1973 is automatically trasnferred to Historic status. The only vehicles pre 73 registered as PLG are those which were initially of the road when the exemption was introduced. Even if you tax it as PLG it will be transferred to Historic

5) This country has similar systems already in place, it is called the congestion charge. In simple terms, if you have a private petrol car then you pay, if you have a low emmissions car the you don't. There are also a few towns and cities which have a complete ban on private cars, not just historic ones.

http://www.the-ace.o...arch_highlight1 . In the quest for 'harmonisation' what will happen if/when that is introduced here for Historic vehicles that cannot qualify for a FIVA passport due to existing modifications


I still think you are missing the point that the FIVA are trying to put across. They want to preserve historic vehicles as much as is practically possible, they also want the right to use them as well. I am sure there are plenty of members in the European Goverments, with vested interests in teh motor industary, who would like to see all cars scrapped once they reach a certain age. They say it is for the enviroment, but we all know that it really is to line their pockets with share dividends and back handers. The FIVA have put forward a plan so that historic vehicles can remain in use and not be consigned to museums and books.
[/quote]

I'd love to believe that but their are giving mixed messages. They say they want the right to use them yet their Techinical codes specifically exclude regularly driven vehicles from qualifying as Historics . The entire charter reads to me PERSONALLY as a rich collector protecting the value of his investments rather than any petrol head who just wants the right to enjoy their cars.

Edited by aceadvice, 26 April 2011 - 08:46 AM.

[aceadvice]

There are many opinions and all are based on how that individual sees Historic motoring. I have no problem with that until anyone tries to force that opinion on me and restrict my freedom.

[aceadvice]

This is an extract from the FIVA newsletter which was published by the FHBVC - FHBCV Blog

"EU LEGISLATION
(Extract from FIVA’s regular update provided by its lobbying service, EPPA) Second meeting of the European Parliament Historic Vehicle Group
The second meeting of the European Parliament’s Historic Vehicle Group took place on 19 October in Strasbourg. During the meeting Horst Brüning, FIVA’s president and FBHVC’s Andrew Burt gave a presentation about the definition of a historic vehicle. They explained that a wide range of definitions are currently used in both EU and national laws and that ideally one common definition would be recognised by decision makers and in law. They then detailed the FIVA definition, explained its rationale and the importance of a definition allowing regulatory audiences to understand why historic vehicles should be treated differently to all other vehicles, especially to all other ‘older’ vehicles. Horst Brüning and Andrew Burt explained that the existing variety of definitions has not created any major practical problems to date, but that as legislation with exemptions for historic vehicles increases (which is likely because of the development of Intelligent Transport Systems and LEZs) there will be a heightened need for a common definition to avoid problems and make life simpler for owners, regulators and law enforcers in the future. They therefore urged the MEPs to help FIVA to promote and achieve a common definition for future use in EU legislation. The MEPs expressed their surprise at the current situation and agreed that they would aim to help FIVA in its objective."

[charie t]

4) If a Pre 1973 car currently has not got historic status then it is taxed under the PLG class and pays the current fee for that class.
Incorrect any pre 1973 is automatically trasnferred to Historic status. The only vehicles pre 73 registered as PLG are those which were initially of the road when the exemption was introduced. Even if you tax it as PLG it will be transferred to Historic

Its not automatic, seen several minors that were still paying tax that people didnt realise they didnt need to be.

[ukcooper]

So as a simple bloke looking at this and according to the way i look at this that no race rally or competition car can be saved or be ever road legal if this law is passed?? as your not telling me that they have not had a panle replaced at some point in the race life and so cannot be classed as perfect ??

P.s. Aceadive keep in there i sure dont understand this but keep going

[1960Zody]

Couple of Key points about where FIVA see this going...

In order to obtain the privilege of comprehensive protection for vehicles as part of our mobile heritage, we need clear definitions and binding criteria. The Turin Charter was written to develop such definitions and criteria.

The acceptance and application of a future set of UNESCO criteria adapted for the requirements of our "mobile heritage" will separate the wheat from the chaff and make the whole system of "historic vehicles" more transparent. Fakes or vehicles that suffered extensive changes to their engineering and appearance that their historic reference is lost would not stand any chance of being registered as historic vehicles.

The Turin Charter is grounded on experience from everyday practice. After successfully passing international review within FIVA, the Charter will become the internationally binding reference for the historic vehicles movement.

People on other sites have come back with the response "So what, just don't register it as Historic, pay your VED and you have no problems.
They won't legislate you off the road."

To turn the argument around, look at the Frankfurt LEZ.
Since 1 january 2010, only vehicles displaying a yellow or green badge have been allowed to enter the Frankfurt low emission zone (Umweltzone).
From 2012, only vehicles displaying a green badge will be allowed to enter the low emission zone.

The vehicles listed below can freely enter low emission zones (Umweltzone):


Mobile machinery and equipment
Plant machinery
Agricultural and forest traction vehicles
Two- and three-wheeled vehicles
Ambulances, doctor’s cars
Cars for disabled people (aG, H, Bl)
Vintage cars marked as H or 07 vehicles
Vehicles with special rights under § 35 of the German traffic regulations (e.g. police, fire, emergency and street-cleaning vehicles)
Germany army/NATO vehicles

The one we are interested in here is H or 07 Vehicles.
Vintage cars (Historics).

So, you can still drive in the zone if you have a 'Defined' historic.

But, should the EU adopt the FIVA definition (Which currently is the only one being actively presented to them) Fakes or vehicles that suffered extensive changes to their engineering and appearance that their historic reference is lost would not stand any chance of being registered as historic vehicles.Therefore, if you don't fit the FIVA definition, you cannot register as a Historic, so there is now a part of Germany where you cannot drive.

There are 40 LEZ's currently in Germany, with more on the table.

The point I'm making here is that the 'Legislate off the road' does not come from Primary legislation, but from 'Secondary' legislation, whereby you are trawled up in one net because you weren't saved by the other one.

No need for inspections or 'Knowledge of the vehicle you are driving just ANPR, as used for congestion charging and the London LEZ.

Just something to think about over you Toast and Tea...

[StrokerBoy]

we have the 8 points sytem that allows ANY modifications the owner choses not those dicated to them.

Who does ? I've never heard of this. What does it mean ?

If you're fighting on all our behalf's against the EU poking it's nose in and interfering in our innocent hobbies then all power to you, seriously. But (and please don't take this the wrong way), I've read your posts and your website and I still have very little idea what you're on about.

[Wil_h]

I must admit I haven't read the links but there have been a lot of sensible questiones asked in this thread with no real answers.

1) What is a ahistoric car? is it something built before a certain date?
2) If you have a '64 mini will it need to be registered as 'historic' if the changes take place?
3) If you didn't/couldn't register your '64 mini as historic what are the concequences?
4) In Germany there is a restriction on what cars can be driven in LEZs. This of course affects classics. Following the tightening of the restrictions in 2012, if you have a registered historic car you are free to enter the LEZ. But what other cars are restricted? Lots is the answer, some relatively young cars.

So there is a big section of cars between historics (whatever these are defined as) and quite moden vehicles that can't satisfy emissions or historic status.

Am I to believe that these cars will allsuddenly be unuseable? You cannot suddenly say that a car made 30 years ago has to satisfy current emission levels, we have it about right in this country. The proposed changes will maybe affect a small minority.

[1960Zody]

we have the 8 points sytem that allows ANY modifications the owner choses not those dicated to them.

Who does ? I've never heard of this. What does it mean ?

If you're fighting on all our behalf's against the EU poking it's nose in and interfering in our innocent hobbies then all power to you, seriously. But (and please don't take this the wrong way), I've read your posts and your website and I still have very little idea what you're on about.

What this refers to is the DVLA points scheme for 'Radically Altered' vehicles.
This decides whether the vehicle retains it's 'Original' identity or not.
If it scores less than 8 points there are different outcomes, depending on different factors.

http://www.direct.go...hicle/DG_191068

Edited by 1960Zody, 04 May 2011 - 12:22 PM.

[StrokerBoy]

What this refers to is the DVLA points scheme for 'Radically Altered' vehicles.
This decides whether the vehicle retains it's 'Original' identity or not.
If it scores less than 8 points there are different outcomes, depending on different factors.

Interesting. Thanks for that.

Luckily my large and varied fleet of rare vehicles (some standard, some modified) all have legitimate registrations already, so I guess I'm out of scope. No doubt someone will be along shortly to point out that I'm wrong...

Nevertheless, as usual, I shall continue to try and remain within the law in all aspects of my life, paying for MOT's, TAX discs and insurance as and when required. Eventually there'll come a point where I (and 99% of the population) become a "criminal" in the eyes of the EU (eg. numberplate screw slots not all correctly aligned) and I shall happily cross that line, stick two fingers up to the world and carry on regardless.

[Ethel]

I don't think it really matters what the exact proposals are,

There's a powerful group of well connected lobbyists who seem to have the ear of the legislators. They represent a narrow band of the car enthusiast scene; the rest of us need to speak up if we want our views taken in to account, now or in the future.

The zoologists have a saying that "one chimp isn't a chimpanzee at all", meaning they are social animals and need a social group to be what they meant to be.

To paraphrase, "an unmodified Mini isn't a Mini at all". At least, it would be a much poorer scene if they all had to be exactly how they came out of Longbridge.

[1960Zody]

I don't think it really matters what the exact proposals are,

There's a powerful group of well connected lobbyists who seem to have the ear of the legislators. They represent a narrow band of the car enthusiast scene; the rest of us need to speak up if we want our views taken in to account, now or in the future.

The zoologists have a saying that "one chimp isn't a chimpanzee at all", meaning they are social animals and need a social group to be what they meant to be.

To paraphrase, "an unmodified Mini isn't a Mini at all". At least, it would be a much poorer scene if they were.

Absolutely spot on Ethel...
If 'We' don't start making our voice heard we'll be drowned out by those who are.

[aceadvice]

we have the 8 points sytem that allows ANY modifications the owner choses not those dicated to them.

Who does ? I've never heard of this. What does it mean ?

If you're fighting on all our behalf's against the EU poking it's nose in and interfering in our innocent hobbies then all power to you, seriously. But (and please don't take this the wrong way), I've read your posts and your website and I still have very little idea what you're on about.

The 8 points system is laid down by DVLA a sto what you can do to your car before losing it's identity and beings ent for BIVA .

This link shows you some of the deeper explanations but links to the official info on the DVLA site. The rules have been in place ,in their current form, for over 27 years.

http://www.the-ace.o...arch_highlight1