35 replies to this topic

[aceadvice]

FIVA have released the FULL details of what they are pushing for as an across EU definition of Historic. If you take the time to read it you will see how FIVA view Heritage bodies or full showroom restos, they don't even recognise modified Historic cars .

We consider it so important it is now on our landing page together with a link to a standard letter and details of how to find your MEP and then MP to harrass.


PLEASE take the time to read the following link and also follow it to FIVAs proposals IF this passes into legislation the modifying Historics is screwed.

http://www.the-ace.org.uk/

Your call, a few minutes of your time will help to preserve our future.

If you think ACEs viewpoint is crap, fine not a problem ,feel free to ignore it . If however you are even concerned in the slightest then please do something about it rather than leaving it to others.

The EU legislators need to be made aware there IS an alternative view

[aceadvice]

Maybe we should make this simpler. if you use a Heritage body or even restore your vehicle to showroom condition FIVA do NOT consider it to be Historic any longer. Don't even think about modifying it.

[ShoutforJoy]

Thanks for letting us know. I contacted my MP and MEPs - took about 10 minutes. Come on folks, get on the programme!!

[surfblue63]

The FIVA are totally independant from any Govermant Organisation. They are an organisation concerned with the presevation of historic vehicles and the continued use of them.
What the FIVA are trying to do is make historic vehicle have tracable histories. They are not trying to stop people from restoring or modifying cars, they just want this work to be recorded and documented. They also want to discourage people from loosing historically significant items by replacing them with modern/new items.
My personal opinion is an original car is always worth more than a restored/modded/replica car. You can not reproduce originallity.
ACE say you should read the link, I don't think they have read it and fully understood it.

Edited by surfblue63, 23 April 2011 - 09:55 PM.

[aceadvice]

Surfblue, perhaps you'd like to read it in conjunction / context of

http://www.the-ace.o...arch_highlight1

[CMcB]

I've read both articles and still seem confused as to how defining certain cars as classic and others not, will affect me.

I can understand the need for specific cars of historic value (race winners, 'originals' like 621 AOK) that they should have period parts to be defined as true classics, but for those of us who just have Minis, how is it going to stop us driving them?

I know my mini a classic car - it's a 50 year old design - i dont need the EU to tell me, but I also know it's not period perfect because of maintenance. I would intend to sell it as period perfect car, so how does this affect us? Are wegoing to stop being able to get taxed and insured?

Or have I just got the wrong end of the stick?

[aceadvice]

If you put the links together you'll see that FIVA approached the EU pointing out that there is not an across EU standardised Historic ruling. They are speaking with the' EU' about formulating one and the Charter of Turin is a formalised douument of their ( FIVAs) considered view.It is a tighter formulation that their existing tech rules for membership of their organisation.


FIVA tech rules

http://www.fiva.org/..... 01012010.pdf

You will see that they do not consider Historics should be driven regularly and must be original . (therefore a non correctly repaired car used regularly would fall outside Historic classification and there is no alternative taxation class to still be able to use them )

If you read the Charter of Turin you will see that they do not consider ' restored to showroom condition' cars as Historic.

They are trying to create these definition to ensure that the Historic Cars which receive exemption sfrom various new regulations are tightly defined.

The EU are unaware of any other view of histori classification other than the one being presented by FIVA.

Edited by aceadvice, 24 April 2011 - 12:17 PM.

[CMcB]

Dude, I'm trying to understand but you're not answering my questions. Don't give me links, tell me how this affects people like us?

[aceadvice]

I can tell you what I THINK, someone will then post to the contrary and call scaremongering, based on what is my PERSONAL opinion (that is based on the links and 38 years involvement with legislation).

I think it is the final nail IF APPROVED of

1) Lower value 'Classic' cars being legislated out of existence

2) Car modifying being legislated out of existence without an actual document saying so

My PERSONAL considered timescale, based on previous proven examples, would be 5-10 years.

I take it everyone knows about the new mOT regs coming in force in 2012due to the requirements for an across EU standardised safety standard , just the same as EVERY cars sold within the EU will have to meet EUWVTA ( type approval banning vehicles from sale that are NOT manufactured within the EU )

In real terms if a car has to meet the fFVA specs to be allowed Historic status ,many will not meet that criteria and there is no alternative registration class.

Other legislation will be based on the FIVA proposlas as it is already in Germany. You are not allowed into a major city operating under an Emission scheme in a Historic vehicle UNLESS it has a FIVA 'passport' which shows its true historic status. Again links and info available on the ACE website .

Did you know one country has already banned cars over 10 years old from its roads and allows Historics at their discretion only ?

http://www.the-ace.o...arch_highlight1


Again ,none of this matters to me on a personal level . I don't currently have a classic car or modified classic car despite them playing a large part in my life for the past 38 years. I have moved on to doing my modifying within the BIVA framework.

Most of the rest of the ACE team still run Historics and historic modified vehicles hence their input and concern.

I have enjoyed this hobby for many years and would like to see it continue but have huge doubts that is possible due to lack of cohesion and that will be OUR failing point.

[CMcB]

Thanks for your reply, but am still none the wiser how they will stop us driving our minis or other daily driver.

If I keep it in good order and get my mot and tax and insurance, then surely this wont affect us unless we are claiming we have a period perfect car.

Are you suggesting that there may be a future EU-wide law that say certain cars over a certain age, say, 15 years old, are illegal unless given 'historic' status? If so, then please say so in clearer terms.


I understand that what they are discussing, I'm trying to find out how you expect them to legislate our cars out of legal daily road use.


Is there not a rule somewhere that says classic cars only have to pass the road legal tests of their time?

I am interested but want you to spit out exactly what you are trying to say.

[aceadvice]

I've an idea...lose the attitude .I've NOT been rude to you and do not respond well to it either.

A team of 12 people has been monitoring legislation and proposals and working with DfT , VOSA and DVLA , plus ETO for 3 years putting all the information on the ACE site for those who are interested to pick through it. You expect me to summarise in one sentence 3 years work?

If you believe it's not a threat (after you have read the links NOT asked for bullet points tailored specifically to how it will affect ONLY you ) then simply ignore this complete thread.

[charie t]

Does it need an IVA?
More histerior whoopie
edit* i didn't think craig was out of order or off terms. As you seem to understand what is being said in these links, you could shed some light on it for others that don't get it or are confused

Edited by charie t, 24 April 2011 - 09:58 PM.

[CMcB]

Does it need an IVA?
More histerior whoopie
edit* i didn't think craig was out of order or off terms. As you seem to understand what is being said in these links, you could shed some light on it for others that don't get it or are confused

Thanks Charlie T, yes you're right I wasn't being rude at all.


ACE if you can't help explain it to us, then there is little chance of getting support for it. Please be a bit more patient and explain how this could affect us as I stated in my last post.

Thanks

[aceadvice]

I believe the article on the ACE site says it all already? However I'll try to break it down .

FIVA have listed their proposals for an across EU Historic definition OVERRIDING each countries current individual rules.

They have the 'ear' of important bodies within the EU.

The EU are not aware on any contrary views.

IF these proposals passed into EU law it would overide our current system.

Currently we are allowed to modify our cars within the DVLA 8 points system.

We are currently allowed to restore and renovate with no checks being made.

The proposals ask for the opposite.

The proposals say in keeping period mods only and done IN period ie no later tuning or clones of famous cars, no Zetecs ,Honda , M/c engined ( though these shoudl have undergone bIVA anyway )

The Historic definition has far reaching consequences.

For instance ,in German cities with Emmission rules Historic cars are only allowed in if they have a FIVA 'passport'. IE if it doesn't comply with their rules no passport no entry .

The Historic rules are being looked at the re exemptions from new laws being passed. If your car doesn't meet the FIVA proposed standards it will not be considered a Historic car.

If it is NOT an Historic car there is currently no alternative class that can be used to allow it's continued use.


It is the non FIVA spec Historic ( or modified ) that would fall foul IF proposals turn into Statute.

How would they Police it? Simple ,but I won't put it down as I'm sure it will be quoted as truth and a statement from ACE . If you can't see any reason that it may affect you, then no problems

For information over 300,000 Historic cars registered currently with between 3-5000 coming on the road every year since meaning that the number on the road has doubled since the exemption was granted.

Edited by aceadvice, 25 April 2011 - 02:13 PM.

[Bungle]

at what age does a car become 'Historic' ? or have i missed it

if we are talking pre 72 and saying 'Historic' on the log book i'm fine with my cars and with the government not having any money it doesn't look like they will be making it rolling again

anyone want to by a non historic log book and i.d tags