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#16 AVV IT

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 03:13 PM

i wouldnt want the area a cage covers to crumple


If the car doesn't crumple and absorb the impact, then the impact force tends to travel through the cars occupants and is absorbed by the their bones & organs instead, often with fatal consequences. This is why modern cars have crumple zones designed in as standard and 4x4's with strong cage like chassis tend to have poor NCAP safety ratings. I would far rather a car crumples around me, that I risk injured limbs & having to be cut from the wreckage, than to be sat in a cage with my vital organs fatally ruptured!!

Edited by AVV IT, 06 February 2011 - 03:14 PM.


#17 Sleepy Stu

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 05:36 PM

i wouldnt want the area a cage covers to crumple


If the car doesn't crumple and absorb the impact, then the impact force tends to travel through the cars occupants and is absorbed by the their bones & organs instead, often with fatal consequences. This is why modern cars have crumple zones designed in as standard and 4x4's with strong cage like chassis tend to have poor NCAP safety ratings. I would far rather a car crumples around me, that I risk injured limbs & having to be cut from the wreckage, than to be sat in a cage with my vital organs fatally ruptured!!



Problem is the mini has about 2 crumple zones the back and the front. Everything else will crumple onto the driver or passenger injurying or maybe killing them.

To be honest it all depends on the type of crash and you can never predict that.

Do you remember the thread a while back where the guy did this to his mini

Posted Image


Posted Image


If he had been carrying a passenger then that person would almost certainly have been dead. However if he had been carrying a passenger and had a 6 point roll cage with door bars that person may have lived. Like I said i all depends on the type of crash.

Edited by Sleepy Stu, 06 February 2011 - 05:37 PM.


#18 DAVEY_C

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 06:12 PM

they say that in the event of an accident the car is built to take the impact which reduces the velocity of force and travel impacted on the passengers but having a cage and hitting a tree as above would result in a sudden stop as the cage reduces the amount the car crumples and this sudden impact causes the most damage.... thats because as they say your internals take the velocity and force instead causing internal injuries and a larger risk of severe whiplash etc, BUT you would have to be trying out your motorsport skills lol....

imo if you need one get one but if you drive safely you shouldn't need one lol

#19 AVV IT

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:26 PM

If he had been carrying a passenger then that person would almost certainly have been dead. However if he had been carrying a passenger and had a 6 point roll cage with door bars that person may have lived. Like I said i all depends on the type of crash.


Now let's take the "if's" out of that scenario and look at what actually happened. The guy didn't have a passenger and didn't have a cage fitted either, but he he did actually walk away from the collison unharmed! Now by the same hypothetical "if's"..... "if" he had have had a cage fitted, then the car may not have crumpled as much and therfore would not have absorbed the forces from the impact anywhere near as much either. The forces would therefore have been far more likely to have been transferred through him and his vital organs instead, never mind his hypothetical passenger, he himself may well have been killed! (and as I seem to recall, I think that I did make comments to that effect on that original thread :P )

Yes the effectiveness of a cage does depend upon the type of collision, but in the majority of road collisions a cage will increase your risk of injury as opposed to reducing it. This is why they are not fitted as a safety device to road cars as standard, they are designed specifically for the specific risks associated in competitive Motorsport not the road. Statistical evidence shows that the presence of a cage in a road car increases the risk of injury to the occupants, which is why fitting one to a road car will generally increase your insurance premium.

Edited by AVV IT, 06 February 2011 - 08:31 PM.


#20 Carlos W

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:36 PM

Emma,

I'm sure 2 pages regarding the pros and cons of roll cages is enough for you to make your decision, so, to hopefully answer the second part of your question what else can you do?

You could consider getting yourself some doors with door bars fitted, or seeing if you can have them fitted to your doors? (If they're not already fitted, someone on here will know when they started fitting them)

You could consider brake upgrade (quite a few options available)

But what I would advise is, keep the car well maintained, brakes serviced, decent tyres, keep on top of rust.

Hopefully others will come up with some more ideas!

#21 nickhead

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:52 PM

can i ask how motorsport crashes differ from road crashes?

also why all motorsport drivers arent dying in every crash from brain shakes and ruptured organs?

"Statistical evidence shows that the presence of a cage in a road car increases the risk of injury to the occupants"

where? im assuming a lot more people crash with cages but i would say that would be down to the person driving with one, most people fitting cages arent going to be grandma's or sunday drivers,

interesting points on both parts i think.

#22 CHUNKY365

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Posted 06 February 2011 - 11:44 PM

If he had been carrying a passenger then that person would almost certainly have been dead. However if he had been carrying a passenger and had a 6 point roll cage with door bars that person may have lived. Like I said i all depends on the type of crash.


Now let's take the "if's" out of that scenario and look at what actually happened. The guy didn't have a passenger and didn't have a cage fitted either, but he he did actually walk away from the collison unharmed! Now by the same hypothetical "if's"..... "if" he had have had a cage fitted, then the car may not have crumpled as much and therfore would not have absorbed the forces from the impact anywhere near as much either. The forces would therefore have been far more likely to have been transferred through him and his vital organs instead, never mind his hypothetical passenger, he himself may well have been killed! (and as I seem to recall, I think that I did make comments to that effect on that original thread :genius: )

Yes the effectiveness of a cage does depend upon the type of collision, but in the majority of road collisions a cage will increase your risk of injury as opposed to reducing it. This is why they are not fitted as a safety device to road cars as standard, they are designed specifically for the specific risks associated in competitive Motorsport not the road. Statistical evidence shows that the presence of a cage in a road car increases the risk of injury to the occupants, which is why fitting one to a road car will generally increase your insurance premium.



I really wish you would stop spouting this old rubbish!

Or at least post up the 'official statistics' as evidence and not just some random posts from forums from people who have no real idea.

Why must you try and 'scaremonger' people when they innocently post up regarding roll cages?

I think by now the most acceptable message is "yes fit one if you want BUT please ensure for maximum safety they are used inconjunction with properly fitted safety harnesses and bucket seats"

Trying to worry people by saying that you will die is just a tad 'over the top' and as for all this old baloney about internal injuries and the like is not doing the safety harness and bucket seat manufacturers much good is it.

I can tell you FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that if it wasn't for my rollcage, harness and decent seat I WOULD BE DEAD!!!

As for crumple zones, PAH!

Crumple zones on modern cars are designed and placed OUTSIDE of the safety cage area, ie around the engine bay and boot areas.

So the bodywork at either end will crumple and the safety cage (technically a rollcage) will protect the passengers in its 'ring of steel' The chances of internal injuries are GREATER due to the occupants moving around inside the car due to only having standard seatbelts.

So in relation, a Mini has its crumple zones at the front and rear (same as modern cars) in the sense of the bonnet, front panel, wings and boot area will crumple in the event of an accident. The roll cage will do the job of stopping whatevers hit your car from trying to get into the interior area ie like a modern cars safety cage.

Yes you may pick up some injuries from the restraints, BUT you'll be alive!

Better alive than dead.

Oh and insurance companies will hike up the price for ANY modifications, small or large. It goes up on a roll cage generally because of the facture of

a) Its quite a large, obvious modification.

b) It gives you a false sense of 'too much security' so you may be inclined to drive faster/worse.

c) It may have not have been fitted properly, or with the rest of the safety gear, or be upto any decent standard.

Its NOT about internal injuries.

So folks I would ignore this drivel about rollcages are gonna get you.

Fit one if you want.

BUT:-

Fit a good one.

Fit it or get it fitted properly.

Fit\get fitted a good pair of Harnesses.

Fit\get fitted good quality bucket or similiar seats.

Fit\get fitted some padding.

Remember to get advise from your insurance company first, some are ok with it, some can be a bit funny. But if its all done properly and above board then you probably won't have much of a problem.

#23 AVV IT

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:11 AM

If your gonna make such a rude & damming response to my thread, then at least substantiate it with some actual evidence and not just some random personal beliefs & opinions backed up by an anecdotal tale of personal experience. Otherwise your above post could equally be deemed as some random post on a forum from a person who has no real idea. :genius:

Edited by AVV IT, 07 February 2011 - 12:13 AM.


#24 Dolly 89

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:26 AM

right then people this is getting a bit deep now and is going to go down a bad road soon i think so to basically sum up if you are going to fit one get one fitted and make sure it is fitted correctly along with other bits like bucket seats harnesses padding etc. there are going to be plus and minus points to both sides of the argument and people will never agree on it i know i would never run without a cage now and thats just because of things that have happened to me whilst driving. you will never know if a cage has saved your life or could have made it worse because no 2 crashes are the same. if any of you have any proof to back up your statements please post because it will be interesting to read

#25 nickhead

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:27 AM

he does make some good points AVV IT.

#26 CHUNKY365

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 12:57 AM

Thank you nickhead.

AVVIT - Rude? Don't think so, believe me if I wanted to be rude and damming then it would definately be more noticeable.

And why do you think your responses are never rude and damming. I'm only equalling the balance.

Personal beliefs? I've not pertained to personal beliefs, nor referenced them. Personaly I'd fit a cage, no buckets (I find them uncomfortable now) no harnesses (can't be bothered with the constant hassle) and no padding (done to many of my past cars).

[you]BUT I WOULDN'T ADVISE ANYONE ELSE TO DO THIS!

[/you]


But at the same time I certainly wouldn't go droning on about how dangerous it all is and that your gonna die by having a cage. I just try to give the best advice. Perhaps my age and experience do count for something after all.

As for unsubstantiated?

You want some actual evidence?

I'm alive!!

I can take you to the field with a metal detector and you will probably still find bits of the car in the field.

This happened in 1988 so no digital camera pics, or phone pics. To be honest I didn't want pics of the car as it was one of the most frightening moments of my life and heartbreaking as I'd put a lot of time and money into the car.

So theres my evidence!

Random post - don't think so!

No idea - try again, all born from personal experience.

Now pick your dummy up (THATS a rude reply!)

Edited by CHUNKY365, 07 February 2011 - 12:57 AM.


#27 Chris C

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 03:31 AM

One thing to keep in mind is that if you go about building a legitimate, multipoint weld-in cage, if the car gets a shunt the rigidity of the cage will transfer the force throughout the car (which is a good thing). However, this can twist the shell in some interesting ways and total the car.

Although I guess this thread is mostly about bolt in cages anyways. Just make sure they don't punch through the floor.

#28 Beej123

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 04:30 AM

Ignore e posts about eliminating crumple zones, we are talking about a car which design changed hardly at all since 1959 when there was no such consideration, fact is if you turn up for a pro rally with no cage you will be sent home, this isn't because it's too safe!
In low speed collisions a cage MAY make it worse but in all high speed collisions (like you would expect on a race track) the cage will be beneficial, otherwise race cars would have normal seats, inertia real belts and no cage.

Can I suggest we all have a walk around, pick up our toys and place them back in the pram? Me included and I don't mean to offend anyone, truth is probably over 80% of road going cages are there for show, just as mine will be lol

#29 Carlos W

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 04:55 AM

Emma,

I'm sure 2 pages regarding the pros and cons of roll cages is enough for you to make your decision, so, to hopefully answer the second part of your question what else can you do?

You could consider getting yourself some doors with door bars fitted, or seeing if you can have them fitted to your doors? (If they're not already fitted, someone on here will know when they started fitting them)

You could consider brake upgrade (quite a few options available)

But what I would advise is, keep the car well maintained, brakes serviced, decent tyres, keep on top of rust.

Hopefully others will come up with some more ideas!

Anyone suggest any other methods of making the car safer and actually answer the original question as we're never going to agree on the roll cage thing?

#30 Chris C

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Posted 07 February 2011 - 06:42 AM

Go through the whole car, and make sure everything is in excellent condition, torqued correctly, greased properly, locked correctly (tabs/washers/safety wire/locktite). Make sure the shell is in good shape, straight, and rust free.

If the car is in good condition then you minimize the chances of something failing, and inevitably going wrong. With that being said our beloved mini is an antiquated design in terms of safety, and there's only so much you can do.

Just go buy a Volvo if you're that worried about it.




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