422 replies to this topic

[andymini12]

[quote name='panelbeaterpeter' date='Dec 25 2010, 10:03 AM' post='2003219']
Just my two pence here, I think TMF should be purely classic mini. I have nothing against the BMW MINI, in fact I think it's bloody fantastic in its own right, but there is a world of difference between that and the classic mini which we all drive and in which we have a vast collected knowledge. The two could not be entirely combined successfully, a separate section for the BMW might work, but I think even that would be silly.
+1

[Scallywag630]

Merry Christmas all......lets have a real christmas present from The Team....give the members what they want, a classic mini only forum.

[Tanya]

Merry Christmas all......lets have a real christmas present from The Team....give the members what they want, a classic mini only forum.

Some members, but by no means all! For me the really Christmas present is to be able to discuss the subject in a mature manner without the mini/MINI threads being closed either due to a small number of members' poor behaviour (thankfully, I do feel this is not the problem that it used to be) or because the staff feel the thread is exhausted. For me, freedom of speech is a fundamental and I wish to be able to continue to express my views and question others in a polite and respectful manner. While I happily accept that not everyone will see things my way, I do wish to be able to raise my points, discuss, explain and justify them and if necessary, many times! If a thread becomes naturally exhausted, it will drop off - simples! However, I do accept that these threads can be resource heavy to moderate, although hopefully with what I percieve to be a more mature level of debate in the past year, moderating these threads may be less onerous.

Edited by Tanya, 26 December 2010 - 04:49 PM.

[Grahamxx]

I’m sorry to say this matter will never resolve itself. To put my pennies worth in, didn’t Rover fund the new mini in the first place?, when BMW took over they just carried on with the project….

I own both a Classic and Bimmi had loads of abuse, but I enjoy both cars for what they are..

[Scallywag630]

Merry Christmas all......lets have a real christmas present from The Team....give the members what they want, a classic mini only forum.

Some members, but by no means all! For me the really Christmas present is to be able to discuss the subject in a mature manner without the mini/MINI threads being closed either due to a small number of members' poor behaviour (thankfully, I do feel this is not the problem that it used to be) or because the staff feel the thread is exhausted. For me, freedom of speech is a fundamental and I wish to be able to continue to express my views and question others in a polite and respectful manner. While I happily accept that not everyone will see things my way, I do wish to be able to raise my points, discuss, explain and justify them and if necessary, many times! If a thread becomes naturally exhausted, it will drop off - simples! However, I do accept that these threads can be resource heavy to moderate, although hopefully with what I preserve to be a more mature level of debate in the past year, moderating these threads may be less onerous.

I totally agree that freedom of speech is essential, however, this topic has been discussed to death and I beleive that the only solution is a democratic vote. Lets put an end to this question once and for all. No need to discuss a vote or consider how it can be arranged, just "Should TMF include the BMW MINI" YES or NO!

[Tanya]

Merry Christmas all......lets have a real christmas present from The Team....give the members what they want, a classic mini only forum.

Some members, but by no means all! For me the really Christmas present is to be able to discuss the subject in a mature manner without the mini/MINI threads being closed either due to a small number of members' poor behaviour (thankfully, I do feel this is not the problem that it used to be) or because the staff feel the thread is exhausted. For me, freedom of speech is a fundamental and I wish to be able to continue to express my views and question others in a polite and respectful manner. While I happily accept that not everyone will see things my way, I do wish to be able to raise my points, discuss, explain and justify them and if necessary, many times! If a thread becomes naturally exhausted, it will drop off - simples! However, I do accept that these threads can be resource heavy to moderate, although hopefully with what I preserve to be a more mature level of debate in the past year, moderating these threads may be less onerous.

I totally agree that freedom of speech is essential, however, this topic has been discussed to death and I beleive that the only solution is a democratic vote. Lets put an end to this question once and for all. No need to discuss a vote or consider how it can be arranged, just "Should TMF include the BMW MINI" YES or NO!

It is your opinion that this has been discussed to death. However, I feel the evidence indicates that this is not the case. The fact that it continues to be discussed, BMW are wishing to associate themselves more closely with mini (and yes of course they are only doing it for sound business reasons, they are a successful company!), membership and opinions change over time, MINI is 10 years old so we are now 10 years on from the last mass produced mini . The likelihood is that we will see more MINI owners showing an interest in TMF, so I would like to get hold of them and tell them about how fantastic mini is, if of course they haven't already seen the light! However, we need to be welcoming to them for this to be successful.

While I have no interest in MINI, I am grateful that a car that is associated with mini is widely recognised as a good car. It is the fact that MINI is good, that I can see that mini and the mini scene can work with MINI to benefit mini. MINI has and will continue to benefit from its relationship with mini, so wise up mini scene and let's get all we can from the relationship to benefit mini. I never understood how Jehovah's Witnesses could relentlessly pound the streets, knocking on doors, doing their best to engage people in their cause until I found mini. I am passionate about mini and keeping mini alive and will never relent in my efforts to engage people in mini. I feel that I can use MINI to help me with this, so I will exploit (in a business sense) this for all I can get for mini.

I do not feel a vote could be taken on 'Should TMF include the BMW MINI" YES or NO!', as whether people like it or not, MINI is included in various ways within TMF - it is happening on one level already. I regularly see pictures of MINIs, questions about MINI and people's views about the latest MINI. The question needs to be more along the lines of 'How do we include MINI within TMF'. Do we continue as we are, or look at a more formal and clear way of including MINI. As this is an evolving situation, should we be reviewing decisions at certain time points, and how are views best canvassed to ensure that all member's voices are heard. Also, is there a way of emailing members who haven't logged in for a certain length of time to ask them why they haven't? - some simple tick box exercise? I am clueless about IT so this suggestion maybe totally unfeasible.

[littlemissmagic]

can i just ask, how exactly does it benefit the mini to work with the MINI??

Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against the new MINIs but i dont see how having a relationship with them benefits the mini?
BMW arent exactly making the parts to keep minis going, in fact the actually tried to stop anything with the mini name being produced...... but either way, the cars are nothing alike!

[Scallywag630]

can i just ask, how exactly does it benefit the mini to work with the MINI??

Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against the new MINIs but i dont see how having a relationship with them benefits the mini?
BMW arent exactly making the parts to keep minis going, in fact the actually tried to stop anything with the mini name being produced...... but either way, the cars are nothing alike!

Well said.

[dave585]

can i just ask, how exactly does it benefit the mini to work with the MINI??

Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against the new MINIs but i dont see how having a relationship with them benefits the mini?
BMW arent exactly making the parts to keep minis going, in fact the actually tried to stop anything with the mini name being produced...... but either way, the cars are nothing alike!

Well said.

Its amazing how many "real mini" fans are blinkered by the facts or cant give a answer to any question asked about MINI etc and can only reply with comments that are done to death.
What has MINI done for the classic. Well at the start BMW went around the wrong way with the mini to start with.
After selling Rover to BMW took the mini a brand that they saw could be great and started to improve it, they kept it in production after 1994 when the Rover were finally about to kill it off! Now they didnt have to do this as sales were falling quicker than a stone in water being as other companies were bringing out smaller cars hell of a lot cheaper than the mini. My mates cooper sport cost £11k new even thou a new Ford Ka was around £7k. It was then that a new version like any other brand was given the go ahead.
After Rover was sold due to the fact that BMW had pumped in millions in to it even thou Rover was bleeding cash left right and centre kept mini and made it a brand of its own.
Now like any company they were protective of the brand only like any other company ie Mcdonalds etc even Harrrods are suing someone for using it shop signage design.
Ok they were heavy handed at first and have now seen that even saying sorry at the IMM 2009.
Any company that wants to produce any bits can with permission from mini companies like BHM can make and sell genuine parts for the classic that are of high quaility and worth the money than a company sell cheaper parts that are rubbish and would not last as long. As more and more companies can do this and parts are still there.
Like SAIC who now produce the MG they are just as protective of thr MG brand.
What else are doing? well most of the big shows are being sponsered by MINI ie IMM and many UK are now having cash from MINI dealers to help run more and more shows. You look around at shows and see how much empty space there would be if MINI owners didnt turn up! plus you would moan if entry prices went up to cover the costs.
Also if every one is anti new MINI well stop using parts from them on the classic ie seats lights turbos or other bits also "classic only" clubs that are using the MINI wings logo on their club banners web sites etc use the classic wings logo then! not the new one.
It seems that many people will use MINI when its suites them but at the same time use abuse them hello pot kettle black!
10 years now its time to drop it the bad feeling and comments it so old hat! we started a group called mini/MINI united not divided its gone mad with over a 1000 people joining from the uk and world wide with more people every day sick of the attiude of the few people are just blind to the fact its time to move forward.
Its up to you to use MINI to your advantage but you dont then moan and whinge about it!

[Tanya]

I feel that all dave585's comments are valid and I would like to add to them. I also believe that there is another important benefit that mini gains from MINI. Sometimes, I think it is easy for those of us immersed in mini to fail to appreciate that there are probably hundreds of thousands of people who while they have a fondness for mini, they could forget about mini and it wouldn't bother them, but within them lies great potential to get them enthusiastic about mini. MINI can play a significant role in this by being a good modern car with strong links in the public's mind to mini.

I was pleased to be able to take our four minis to Plant Oxford's family day in September. Obviously BMW invited us add to their displays and entertainment (benefits for them). A small digression here - I really do struggle when members are resentful when BMW milk mini's heritage for all the can get from it and that they say that only reason that BMW are eager to get into the scene is because there's a lot of money to be made. Well of course this is the case, why oh why would anyone expect this not to be the case, particularly given that BMW are known to be an astute and effective business! If only the mini scene (ok, some in the mini scene have seen this are are doing this) were as astute and effective as BMW, we could get even more for mini from the relationship. Anyway, back on to the point, we were not the only minis at the family day, the Mini Cooper Register also had a stand (they've got the hang of mini/MINI!) and generally mini was well represented. Around 12,000 friends and family of BMW employees came and I would imagine nearly all of them will have seen minis and talked about them. We had many people round our minis, at times it was difficult to see our minis for people and their enthusiasm was palpable. This day will have rejuvenated many memories and a real fondness for mini with thousands of people and I dare say they will have told their friends about the minis they saw. This is what I want, keeping mini alive for people and for mini itself. What I like about MINI owners, is although there are many who merely consider them a just an 'A to B car', there are a surprising number who feel that by owning a MINI they are automatically associated with and are part of mini. While, I may see them as entirely different cars, I have to say that the general feeling in the country is that MINI is a progression of mini and so the cars are very much together. Therefore, with MINI owners, I feel that I am half way there in selling mini to them as the best thing since sliced bread. They believe they are part of mini so my job is to move them along and make them part of mini - get them wearing the clothes, talking mini, looking out for minis etc (maybe even owning one!) AND particularly important for me, getting their children enthusiastic about mini. Like it or not, MINI has played a significant role in keeping mini alive for many of the general public. I believe that mini should be for the masses, not just the diehard enthusiast! Therefore, as I have said before, anyway that TMF can make MINI owners feel welcome and valued, will, I believe, benefit mini overall.

[mab01uk]

Anybody who has been involved with other types of classic car will know that when a car brand or model dies its ownership and enthusiast base ages and shrinks dramatically in numbers with each passing decade until you are left with a hardcore of diehards re-living their youth (usually stereotyped as old men with beards standing round in a field comparing their anorak knowledge.....). This is inevitable and has already happened to a great extent in the classic early Mini Cooper world where even the few remaining project cars are priced out of reach of younger enthusiasts and the rest are mostly owned by the ageing (like myself!) or more affluent enthusiasts who owned them first time around in our youth. The same is progressively happening with all later 1990's Coopers and early 1960/70's Mini's, commercials and no doubt the later 1980's onwards Mini variants will follow as the years go by and their rarity increases

The classic Mini scene may well be quite healthy and buoyant at present......but having talked with the editors of the Mini magazines and show organisers recently about the future prospects, they all realise they have to urgently plan and make changes to allow for the prospect of far fewer young people seeing a classic Mini used in everyday life or having the chance or desire to own one as a cheap first car, as did most of us when we started out on our Mini experience.
ie. for the mags (and event organisers) falling sales due to an already shrinking public awareness/enthusiast base with potentially very little new young blood entering the scene in future with their first time cars as a cheap classic Mini daily driver, as was always the case in the recent past.

The New MINI while initially out of price range for most young enthusiasts is now a ten year old popular used small car getting cheaper and more accessible for youngsters by the day and with a vibrant growing enthusiast base, growing numbers of clubs, events and its own Modern MINI magazine, who along with Miniworld both now under the same publishing group and editorial director who will continue to joint sponsor some major events.
Being a relatively recent New MINI owner (but long time classic owner) my experience has been almost exclusively that the New MINI scene are very welcoming and eager to join and mostly respect the classic Mini scene and heritage, despite the well known often ignorant pointless hostility of some within it towards them. I have also witnessed many MINI owners, with no previous classic Mini experience, interested and aspiring to owning a classic like mine or like those they see at the annual Mini/MINI shows and many going on to get deeply involved via this newly sparked interest.

Nothing in life is always exactly as we might like but we should make the best of how things have turned out and as Tanya says above, in this case work with the New MINI scene and BMW (where possible) from a more influential position within and then help promote and be part of a strong united Mini/MINI scene rather than just becoming an insular, shrinking and inward looking group of ageing enthusiasts within the classic car scene.

We should therefore celebrate that short sighted Rover management were not allowed to let the Mini finally die forever in 1996 due to EU safety/emmision laws and steadily falling sales as they had originally planned, but were instead financed by BMW and John Coopers enthusiasm to successfully revamp it as a new design for the 21st century, even though the previous British owners had tried and failed so many times to do it before, since 1968.............

With regard to the continued supply of genuine Mini parts...........Monty Watkins ex-editor of Miniworld, himself informed me at the IMM that few people realised how much money and time BMW invested (with some help from himself) behind the scenes in helping to save the original production tooling for the Mini and transferring it into safe hands at British Motor Heritage along with their continued efforts to buy back and save unique tooling for BMH from the many component manufacturers who factory supplied Mini spare parts but were planning to scrap old tooling due to falling mainstream customer demand. Also their efforts to protect the quality and ripping off of genuine BMH Mini items by suppliers of cheap, poor quality and sometimes unsafe goods.

Edited by mab01uk, 26 December 2010 - 05:12 PM.

[WRLondon]

the original mini was revolutionary
sideways mounted engine, tardis like interior room
wheels on all four corners
changed motoring forever

new mini does what?

[WRLondon]

i was also the one that mentioned earlier that BMW owned rover since 94 so late classic mini's were made by BMW ish.
But they were also more prone to rust

[WRLondon]

Also the classic mini wont die out as they are a qwerky little car thats cheap to insure, looks cool, cheap and easy to modify
and attracts people that want something a little different

and out perform other similar cars
thats why i bought one!

Edited by WRLondon, 26 December 2010 - 04:35 PM.

[xBR4DLEY]

the original mini was revolutionary
sideways mounted engine, tardis like interior room
wheels on all four corners
changed motoring forever

new mini does what?

Its called product extension , things cant be sold forever , in our case the classic mini wouldnt have past strict EU rules so had to be re-introduced , albeit it as a bigger , softer version but it had to be done. Do the original Fiat 500 people moan about the new one? You need to look at it from a business point of view and that is what BMW did.